The Wounded Among Us
Episode Details
Transcript
Andrew is a decorated Iraq war veteran dealing with PTSD and its impacts on his personal and professional life. While having our conversation specifically about PTSD, we also talk about the nature of a leader’s relationship with co-workers, and the special responsibility we have to support one another and create safety and acceptance for those who carry heavy burdens of all kinds.
Speaker 2
00:00
Sometimes I am fine and sometimes I am not, sometimes I will be able to even hide it. Well, where people will least, I don't think people are recognizing it. I would say everyone that was over there with us, probably has some way shape or form have some form of PTSD if it's been diagnosed or.
Speaker 1
00:15
Not, I am Jim Hustler. And this is path forward, real conversations about leadership in every episode. We're having real conversations with real people. All about real issues, about the Journey, about the challenges about the joys. One thing leaders believe, is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the challenges, no matter how confusing or difficult things are, there's always a path forward leadership is a very creative process if you're doing it. Well, for the past 21 years, we have been teaching leadership primarily through the process of great conversations. Andrew is the chief technology officer at VCT, oh secure he's got a big job, and he's also got a big full life, and he's happily married has two young kids but before starting his it career he was in the military, and he served in Iraq and now he has PTSD. And it's something he's been navigating. He's been managing it for a lot of years. He's been doing a lot of work to do. Learn how his PTSD shows up and how he can best manage. It Andrew went from not wanting to talk about his PTSD at all with anyone but now he's sharing it openly with his family and his co-workers and now he's coming on my show to talk about it publicly, and we really appreciate that. The truth is even if you're not experiencing PTSD, we're all struggling with something or will at some point in our lives. And whether that's a mental or physical health issue, welcoming a new baby into your family may be caring. For kids aging, parents, divorce death in the family. You know, any other big changes at home, all of those things impact, how you show up at work every day, and your co-workers can often sense that there's something going on and that can create a real tension. Now in my conversation with Andrew, he models how to be a whole vulnerable person at work and to extend Grace to himself and to others. Andrew, welcome to path forward. Real conversations about leadership.
Speaker 2
02:48
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1
02:49
Andrew, can you start by filling Us in on your background in the military and how it led you to it?
Speaker 2
02:56
I went in the military around February 2003. I had a lot of family in the military and I went in and was a military police officer for a few years and was medically retired from the military in 2006 I got out went to school completed my bachelor's, and they got my first job and I T and I worked in healthcare it for close to 10 years. And then this past year, I started working for VC t, l secure took over as the chief technology officer and been really focused on the security and driving improvements and automation within the.
Speaker 1
03:25
Company. You like your work? Oh, I love it. What do you like about?
Speaker 2
03:28
It? I love being able just to fix things fine. Problems and fixing and just if there's something that could be automated, I want to automate it. You like to fix things.
Speaker 1
03:38
I need more friends. Like you can we dig into your military background a little bit more? Why did you get a medical retirement? So I went over.
Speaker 2
03:48
To Iraq and November of 03 went over is a, what was called as a casualty replacement. So went to Kuwait. We were in a holding for maybe a couple weeks and then I worked in a jail. We had a lot of high up generals, that work for Saddam. So we worked in the jail for a little bit and then I guard some very important people. Yeah, that I did qrf, which was a quick response Force. So we would rotate, we'd be in jail, some days. And then, and we work like 12-hour shifts, and then we might be on qrf where we're watching. We're just in a ready state. So if anything happens we got to travel to an area and then From there, I actually volunteered to stay in Iraq and I went down to Baghdad, and I was put on a security team and also a marksman Observer team, layman's terms, what a lot of people would think is the movies like a sniper team. So I would always consider the spotter. So I did security for a full bird colonel. He was in charge of all the military police operations. He was an excellent leader to learn from and excellent, just teacher just to learn from him through his actions.
Speaker 1
04:54
Interesting. So, what happened then? Wait.
Speaker 2
04:56
A lot of lets us say.
Speaker 1
05:00
Is this difficult for you to talk?
Speaker 2
05:01
About? Can be sometimes? I am just well part of it is, I is the I think with the PTSD sometimes it's easy to get. Like, I lose my train of thought and sometimes stressful situations can bring it out. It just varies on how it's going to impact me.
Speaker 1
05:19
Thanks for sharing that you're welcome. So that kind of it affects you even just in your cognitive capacity. Yeah, time. Yeah. Actually, you know when we Somebody sticks, a microphone in your face or something, right, right, exactly. And.
Speaker 2
05:30
Sometimes I am fine and sometimes I am not, sometimes I will be able to even hide it. Well, where people will least, I don't think people are recognizing it. So you come back from the military, you don't need to tell us what you saw there and what you experience in, unless it's important to do so, but it granted. You had some very, very difficult experiences. When I got back. I was very defensive and part of that is PTSD and where I have and I still get like Angry outburst and occasionally I didn't want people to know. I was in the military was kind of shamed when I first got back because what I had to go through what I doubt with, but We got attacked, like, every day, two weeks, straight before we left got it from IEDs to mortar rounds. Small-arms fire. I think I had like a burn hole from a bullet in my uniform from, we were our one day, so there was a lot that we went through together as a group. Which I mean that held a lot of us together to help cope and deal with it. Especially when we got back.
Speaker 1
06:34
Are you aware of any other people from your unit that have been diagnosed with PTSD? As.
Speaker 2
06:38
Well. I would say everyone that was over there with us, probably has some way shape or form have some form of PTSD if it's been diagnosed or.
Speaker 1
06:47
Not. When were you officially diagnosed with PTSD and how did that impact you? Yeah, so.
Speaker 2
06:55
It was rough. First finding out, I had it because I was having a lot of nightmares, so you didn't diagnose yourself. I didn't diagnose myself, and it just like, we had a debriefing, we got back from Iraq, and they said, if you start seeing symptoms after a month, come back and start can help. So, I started seeing someone and then so it was a psychiatrist. And then a psychologist, I have learned a lot over the last 15 years about myself and I have learned I got to keep learning. I have Actually sinking different ways of doing things, learning new ways to help kind of alleviate. The.
Speaker 1
07:33
Symptoms, you have made a success out of yourself. Congratulations for that. Thank you. You're holding down a good job. Yeah, you're successfully. Married your father. I know you went back to complete your be a when you return from Iraq. How was going back to school helpful to you?
Speaker 2
07:51
I know a lot of other veterans myself, we felt a lot like we missed a lot when we were gone. And so was an Instant catch up for me where I felt like I was behind in life where I was at. Whereas, here I am out of the service with PTSD with along other medical issues and it was just like its things kept piling up. I mean, I just beat me down, and I am like, I got to get out of this. I can't live my life around. These things holding me back, I am going to charge ahead and then with the VFW, I was pushing me and everyone always Behind me, had my back going to school, getting my Bachelor's degree and then I finally got my first, it jobs and I got into health care and then covid happened. And I started Mike, I got into graduate school. I started my Master's Degree where I first focused on Information Technology leadership. It worked out well because I was able to do everything remotely, and I am I got to say one thing is, it would not have been possible without my wife watching the kids, she took the brunt of everything. So She sacrificed a lot for me to go to school to be able to even get to that point to complete my degree. And then I completed my degree and then five months, and I was coming onto V sitio, secure as their Chief technology officer where I have just hit the ground running and just learning as much as I can, and just completely changing our structure in the way things are done with systems and just improving a lot of.
Speaker 1
09:21
Processes. I am honored to be on the board of directors of a business skill Incorporated skills is located down in Auburn near Seattle and there in Aerospace company and fifty percent of their Workforce is disabled and one of those disabilities is PTSD what skills believe in, and I am on their board, and so I believe in it pretty fervently myself to is that when we label somebody is damaged when we label the somebody as less than we do damage not only to that individual, but We do damage to our society. Right. There's this is so much collateral damage when somebody doesn't get to live a fuller life because of this some circle we have drawn around them. And so don't go outside the circle. So it's in all of our interests greatly to help the people that live on the fringes of our society to come in and be part of the center of it. It helps. It makes us all better and it saves hate to say it but it saves a lot of money. Need to write its economically. It makes much more sense to bring these people into a functioning role than it does to sequester them and say, let us just be super careful what we asked them for how I felt.
Speaker 2
10:40
When I got back where I felt damaged and couldn't fill where I couldn't even open up all of us, vets, that gone to war. We got, we grew up real fast and part of it is just you see how quick people can lose life and how quick that can be taken away and you want ain't part of it is some of my friends that I have lost through either suicide or actually being in battle. So I kind of want to serve for them to just try and help out as much as I can because they're not here, and they have left like great impressions on me. I had a team lead that was killed over on a, his second tour over in Iraq and I try and hold those people that have been in my life, those values. And what I have learned from them, and I try and pass those on.
Speaker 1
11:27
So you come back and you try to get back into normal life, you deal with a situation like PTSD, how helpful is it for you to talk about it? How helpful is it to be transparent about it in the workplace? We want to know each other. Good leaders know what makes people tick and understand their background and things like that. But how do you talk about PTSD with the people that you work with?
Speaker 2
11:56
See, that's a tough one. I have for the longest time I have been I would try a hide, it one would try to minimize it and I would say probably within the last two years I have started talking about it.
Speaker 1
12:11
More. What was it that prevented you from going to talk?
Speaker 2
12:15
About it. Maybe it's just an internal fear and a sense that people are going to judge me or be afraid or how are they going to take it and how do I express it? Because I know with me and my wife and the kids we have come up with like a keyword where we will call it chocolate chip cookie time. I am just phrase it out when I may be experiencing some symptoms, or I need to be kind of left alone, which just that for us, made it easy for us for our family Dynamic. But I haven't come up with a way for how to do it with work and maybe this is a way of doing it. But.
Speaker 1
12:50
And I guess we could have chocolate chip cookie time at work to, couldn't we? Yeah, we could it sounds like part of your maybe fear or hesitancy in talking about it is it's not so much that it brings the memories back for you but You just concerned about how the other person is going to react to what you're saying, right? Going to treat you differently, or they're going to get weird and clumsy and uncomfortable in your presence at washes. That happens. People just all of a sudden, get all kind of like weird because they want to be sympathetic. They want to show concern for your situation, but they really don't know what to do. I think, with the information you have given them is that? Is that a fair? Yeah, that's a.
Speaker 2
13:31
Completely Fair.
Speaker 1
13:32
Assessment and So they like do I need to be more careful around this? Do we need to treat him more gently or should I be careful what I say? What? I don't say around him and again, it's not just PTSD. We're talking about, we're talking to all kinds of situations where we meet people who, you know, they're in abusive relationships, or they have a terminal illness or their formerly incarcerated people, I have worked with him before where, you know, how do I talk about this, right? Right. How do we talk about this? And I guess I didn't want you to bring you on the show. And have you give us a tutorial but Curious about Anna. What works? And what doesn't work? If I was your coworker, what would you want me to know about your PTSD?
Speaker 2
14:15
I guess the big thing with PTSD at least for me and I know everyone's symptoms are different. Like I will have trouble concentrating, or I can get focused, and I am zeroed in on something. I think a lot of us at struggle with PTSD, a lot of us like an adrenaline rush because we missed that Adrenaline Rush that we had. During the war and part of that is, we act out in ways to get that Adrenaline.
Speaker 1
14:41
Rush, even if it's generated through anger or acting out in some way. And I think that's why the.
Speaker 2
14:46
Anger comes out and it's not intentional, but I think a lot of us will go racing or.
Speaker 1
14:51
Do some extreme sports of some.
Speaker 2
14:53
Sort of. Yeah I think that's the one thing a lot of us have struggled with. As we come back is integrating because we don't learn how to shut that adrenaline off. So I try Channel it, with my it and go to the it and try and channel it to focus my energy because that gives me a rush working on things.
Speaker 1
15:10
Yeah, that's a really I mean, just what you have just told me in the last couple minutes would be enormously helpful for me to know about, right. An employee who is diabetic, and he didn't want to tell me he was diabetic. He thought if we knew that we wouldn't hire him, so he never told us, and he damn near went into a diabetic coma at work one day. Day and we didn't know what was going on, we had no idea. He even had diabetes. So when we hold that information back from our employers, maybe we reduce the risk that they will judge us ahead of time. But how important is it? That me so important for us to know that stuff, right? And then you just have to hope that your employer is you know, sympathetic to the situation. So I find it very interesting, the adrenaline part of this is something I don't think I Heard before. So, is there a tendency to kind of create some drama, or is there a temporary issue, sometimes with this or are you going to blow things out of proportion?
Speaker 2
16:13
Sometimes? Yeah, sometimes I have and I know I have done that on things out of proportion, I sometimes think the conflict creates that rush. I have been going through therapy and since I got back from Iraq.
Speaker 1
16:26
Good, I am glad, I am glad to hear that you're doing that.
Speaker 2
16:28
Yeah, I think one of the big things was even when I was in the military, it was kind of frowned upon. To go admit that you need help and get help.
Speaker 1
16:35
Yeah, it's your warriors. You're not supposed to show. We need any.
Speaker 2
16:38
Weakness and part of its fear because of what's going to happen in my neck, going to get promoted. Am I going to lose out on rank because that was all possibilities? Depending on what type of unit, what you were in, I had excellent leadership that I worked with, and they worked with me and help with me until I was medically retired. But I know others probably weren't that fortunate? So it's always been hard because you got that pressure from society. In general or it's kind of been frowned upon and mental illness isn't really. It's starting. I think recent times they become more of a focal point in more people talking about it which I think helps me even just coming on the show, sure. Which as I have seen more people come out and talk about it more and I think it's better for awareness.
Speaker 1
17:23
In the work that we do path forward. We really strongly emphasize the relational aspect of leadership is just really knowing who you're NG with, I think our leadership is much stronger. When we really know the people who work with us, on a very personal level and some people are uncomfortable, you know if they just come to work and do a good job if I leave them alone, that's fine. We don't have to have any relationship beyond that, but this is such a central part of who you are now that for me to work with you, and not know that. But then, you know, you're a partner in that, right? Because you're going to have to share it with me, right? And then, I am going to have To be a partner and say, okay, you have just shared something really important about yourself, but you have also given me an opportunity to help you, right? Because if I recognize these patterns and I know what your triggers are, and we have safe words or whatever we have and you say, okay here we go. Do we need to end this meeting, or could you go code for a while or something, right? Great to kind of calm you down. And, you know, I we can talk about PTSD specifically. But there's a bigger issue here because in a much less difficult way. We all have triggers. And we all have things that cause us to shut down. And we all have things that drive us. Crazy. And the more we can recognize that in each other. The more we can help it braises for me a really interesting question, which is as awful as it's been to have PTSD and it's much of a challenge As it's been, are there ways that you have grown as a human being because you have it that you might not have. Otherwise.
Speaker 2
19:10
Yeah, I would say definitely because I know there were some points where I.
Speaker 1
19:16
Got into different coping mechanisms to.
Speaker 2
19:19
Use where it would go through? I was going of stints of alcohol.
Speaker 1
19:24
where was very drinking.
Speaker 2
19:26
Drinking a lot when I first got back and then I realized that was a problem and I stopped and I drink occasionally but not to the Extent like where I.
Speaker 1
19:34
Would you not numb your?
Speaker 2
19:35
So I have learned that I need to do things in moderation, so I can't go full end and that's where I kind of Channel. A lot of my energy towards it. So I focus a lot of that and the learning aspects, where a lot of my energy goes to help alleviate, a lot of the symptoms. And it helps me focus and stay kind of little bit.
Speaker 1
19:56
Organized. Is there any type of work that you would be? Unqualified for because of your PTSD, would? I want to not have you as a policeman in my community or something? I.
Speaker 2
20:07
Don't know if it would necessarily disqualify me, I guess it would depend on how bad my symptoms were and how it was reacting. I wanted to be a police officer at one point. I really wanted to get in the FBI like that was my dream at one point, but that evolved and changed because when I got back, I was like, okay, this isn't for me, I can't do this. I don't feel comfortable doing this because I knew myself and I think that's that I learned is you got to know yourself and what Our limits are. And if you're not putting limits on what you're doing to really focus where it's going to put you in a spot where it's going to put you in danger or something like that, where, where it could really aggravate it.
Speaker 1
20:44
Worse. And yet having said that you probably have some pretty incredible skills that you learned in dealing with.
Speaker 2
20:50
Yeah, yeah difficult situation. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of difficult situations we had to deal with one of the things that helped me actually when I got out of the service. It was I got involved with my local VFW and then I Veterans of Foreign Wars. Yep, my first meeting, I was elected.
Speaker 1
21:07
Commander. Wow. Wow. Like, oh, they could see right away that he had a leadership presence about you. I.
Speaker 2
21:12
Struggled my first year and but I grew a form that and I learned a lot from the post and the people there and there was a community. I think that's the big thing is having that community of people to help support you.
Speaker 1
21:27
The people we work with should be part of the community, shouldn't they? Yeah. Those of us that have never had to deal with something like PTSD. I know we might need some coaching, right, right. You know, what does it mean to be part of your community? Well, how can I, how can I be part of your community? I curse. I have to want to write and have to care enough about you as a human being to participate, but I also need to know things that I might do. That would be unhelpful is their behavior that people have had towards you because of your PTSD that you found unhelpful?
Speaker 2
21:56
I guess hard thing for me is usually confrontation. Because I don't know which way I am going to go when dealing with it. So I guess the people skills is where I can struggle with a little bit. I will either shut down and I just want to avoid it altogether or sometimes I will overreact and have an over reaction where it doesn't work. And I have been constantly trying to grow in that to try and get somewhere in the middle where it's not, so one-sided either way. Because if I go back being passive, then I feel like I didn't express my Canyon and then I feel.
Speaker 1
22:31
Unheard when I am reacting to, as you say that is that, you know, that very well might be part of your PTSD story, but it's also a very common story, right? It's maybe in a lot of ways, the most common story I hear from people is difficulty in having challenging conversations with other human beings. It's hard right, right? You're not yet 40. So you have got a good run way ahead of you. Try some really cool things. What's your vision for where you go? And again, what limitations might? You see because of your PTSD would affect your future plans or your goals, or your aspirations.
Speaker 2
23:08
I have kind of learned that I need to kind of force myself into situations, because.
Speaker 1
23:13
if I.
Speaker 2
23:14
Avoid it altogether, then I either miss out on something or don't experience something. The big thing is like large crowds group settings where I can really be a little bit nervous or sometimes. I get so fearful like there's I am going to be attacked or something's going to go off that. Or gets a little bit hard where I have had to sometimes force myself, to go to those events and be like keep telling myself, okay? It's going to be fine, nothing's going to.
Speaker 1
23:39
Happen. Those make you kind of.
Speaker 2
23:41
Vigilant. I always seem to have a heightened awareness. So I am kind of will usually scan the room anywhere, so it's just sometimes it's a blessing and a curse because looking for things that I will catch things. If it's something is going to happen, right, right? But at the same time, I am exhausted by the end of the day be or at the end of the vent. So that's kind of one of the limitations I could. See, as far as if some events May hold me back from going, just because the symptoms that I am experiencing are so bad at that time my voice inside. It's basically saying don't.
Speaker 1
24:11
Go, you have gotten a lot of help you have gotten therapy. You have made a community with the VFW and things like that. Do you know of people who have pretended that there's no issue there and have suffered because of it.
Speaker 2
24:25
There was a couple veterans that I had served with that they came back, and they took their own life. And I have thought about that at early on with the drinking and stuff.
Speaker 1
24:34
It helped that I had the.
Speaker 2
24:35
Support that I had. I had my family, I could talk to, I had the community at the VFW where I could talk to and I had friends, I could talk to.
Speaker 1
24:42
Some people, don't have that. Yeah, or don't know that they need it so much bright. Yeah. Well, you know, I have managed a lot of people I was a business executive and I have had a, you know, hundreds of people reporting to me at various times in my career. One of the challenges I have had in my Leadership career, is it if I see somebody in the workplace overreacting or having a really difficult moment of acting out or temper or something like that. There's a tendency because we're businesspeople, we want to dissect the circumstance, and we say, well what was it? That upset you so much right and kind of try to solve the problem at kind of tactical level and there have been times when I have seen people really struggling in one way or another in the workplace and I have sat down and said, I need you to tell me what's really going on here and a couple times I have done that and people said nothing's going on. I am fine. I am just pissed off because Bob didn't File is report on time or something like that. But I always feel like when somebody's really struggling that way, and they're acting out in that way at the workplace. I don't want to play amateur psychologist with him. I realize I really don't want to do that. But I want to let him know that I noticed that there's something going on here. That isn't it doesn't seem right or doesn't seem normal and I think you know the probably there's HR people out there listening to me right now that like now are you should never do that's the purview of the medical professionals and yet it's not a bosses role but I think there is a role to just say I noticed you're struggling with this. I notice that you have kind of broken out and had some difficult conflicts with your co-workers or whatever, and I am just curious if we can talk about that and explore why that's happening right now? And I don't know very many business managers that will have that conversation with their employees. I used.
Speaker 2
26:43
To have that conversation with my When I notice things are up, where there are acting off, I always tried to know my employees. Really? Good manager, he had me go. I want you to go talk to everyone, come back to me, in about a month, and tell me one thing about everyone. Yeah, or yeah. And I would make a list. I love that. And I went down and I wouldn't know my employees and know. I would try and learn like their likes their.
Speaker 1
27:07
Dislikes. Blobs of soccer coach. Yeah. So he grew up in China or, you know, whatever, just something. Trusting that, that makes them a more rounded image for you rather than just a co-worker.
Speaker 2
27:21
But by learning your employees, you can easily tell signs when something's off, if someone is having a rough time, I go. Hey, go get off the phones for five minutes. Go back, a breather. Go take a break, because I used to work in a call center so that it's a pretty stressful environment. When you're got Health Care Providers calling, and they're upset, they're computer's not working and it would sometimes go in spurts. When I was even an analyst, some days you just get beat up on the phones. And other days you're not. So, just taking a break. If I am in a break, letting someone go get away for a little bit, can help get the air. I always found it was easier. Not really asking what's going on. Let them get the Breather first, right? Then talking to them to see. Hey, what's going on everything? All right, because that usually calms someone down, you go walk. You burn some energy. As one thing I used to love doing was just walking.
Speaker 1
28:10
You know if you say well, that's not acceptable behavior in our department on ever do that again. When that conversation just shuts down that person just doesn't ever want to talk to you again. If you say this is what I noticed, you know, I care about you as a human being. Let us talk about what happened and how we can maybe prevent it. I think that's just so effective when a leader does that, and you have had people to do that. Well, with you, and you have sounds like you have tried to do it for.
Speaker 2
28:35
Others, learning to be a leader. Just it's.
Speaker 1
28:37
Constantly, evolving. I am almost 67 years old. I am still learning it. Trust me. So, you're.
Speaker 2
28:41
Constantly adding new school skills, to your tool belt, basically, Approach situations differently and sometimes you could use the same tactic with one employee versus another and it's not going to work. You got to kind of meet them on their level and communicate with.
Speaker 1
28:56
Then on their level. I would imagine one of the tragedies of PTSD is that if people are unable to deal with it reasonable way or a helpful way, they almost become unemployable and that's doubly sad because I think work would probably give a lot of people in opportunity. To give their lives purpose and focus and meaning. So I think that's probably one of the things that's probably been helpful for you. Are you have a meaningful career?
Speaker 2
29:23
Absolutely. I mean, that's the one thing that's always driven me. Further to keep growing and keep learning. And I love helping people with computers. I love fixing them. I like learning everything I do, it just like my whole purpose. In life is I want to change the way we fix computers and just.
Speaker 1
29:40
Help people in general. So if you left your company that you're working for now and went to, Play for another job with another company. What would you feel? Obligated to reveal would help you understand what kind of attentional employer. You're dealing with to see how they reacted to that. I guess.
Speaker 2
29:56
There're two sides of the coin with that other people have told me don't say that about do mention at all and don't ever mention it or there's the other flip side you that you be honest and just mention it and you can kind of just lay down your poker hand and just see where the cards.
Speaker 1
30:11
Lie. So you have a boss and you It times in your career you have also had employees who reported to you, would you be less likely to reveal it to an employee? For example, then you would be to appear or a.
Speaker 2
30:23
Boss, I would say early on, I would have more likely to reveal it to a boss. But as I have grown, it's more that I felt more comfortable, exploring that and being a little bit more open where I was more open with my colleagues about it right now, with my team, I have been pretty open with them and so if Was asked me a question. Sure, I will .
Speaker 1
30:46
Answer. I have found that most employees really appreciate that sort of transparency from their boss. There's something about humbling yourself to the people that you work with, that's really powerful and courageous and, and typically very well respected. Now, if you're wearing a hair shirt all the time and you're always complaining about it and you're talking about yourself as a victim over and over again. People will get tired of that. But if you just say, Hey, listen, this working relationship. What we have is very important. We're going to be spending a lot of time together. And I think you should know this about me, I can't imagine too many employees crap. I wish you hadn't told me that I think it's pretty much the opposite in my experience and I hope you have had positive experiences primarily when you, when you share this as anybody just, like, freaked out and run for the hills or.
Speaker 2
31:36
No, I can't think of anyone freaking out over it. I actually, I think I have some friends that I have seen that are pretty open at it, that they will share on Facebook and the Pretty open about their mental struggles and everything they got to do it. I think it's sometimes helpful for a lot of us because I think sometimes we get so focused on whatever we're doing in life that we forget other people are struggling.
Speaker 1
31:57
There any accommodations that you would suggest, employers provide you need a like a room. You can go and scream or you know throw some pillows around or you'd need a walking path outside the building. So you can, what might you suggest would be helpful for somebody to give safe space and room for that?
Speaker 2
32:17
I like most of the thoughts, the pillows my might help on Some days, you know, I think the walking would be good, at least for me a little place, just to be able to walk or path or quiet place to think or sometimes, just a room to go to be in silence. I think that's sometimes. It's good to help calm, you down and breathe. And I know other veterans might have other tips or tricks that work better for them.
Speaker 1
32:41
And, but we can ask is that? I mean, that's a fair question to ask, isn't it? I mean, if you have an employee and that this has come up in conversation, I think the responsible leader would say, what do we need to do. So that you can deal with these situations successfully. Right. Right. But it's a question and it's not only a question you asked for people with PTSD, right? It's a question you asked for all your employees all the time, right, right. What do you need, how can we create a structure in an environment around? You hear that brings out the best and helps you Rex and off the rough spots that you have that are going to come up from time to time. And how can I recognize this is, you know, kids who have behavioral problems often. It's a process. Of learning their triggers. There're certain things that people say or do, or smells or food or whatever, get the sound of a passing truck. There's a million things that can set people off. So, we asked about stuff like that. We just say, what do I need to know about you to be a good partner to you, to be a good friend, a good leader, a good co-worker. And it's like I said, it's a question that is often not asked and it's sad because then employee will walk out the door. Take their talents with them because Nobody took the time to get to know them. I guess I want to say that the thing that probably people say to you all the time, which is thanked you for your service. I am never sure whether how well that's received and whether that comes across its just kind of superficial but I know you went over and did some amazing work on my behalf. So I want to acknowledge that. Thank you.
Speaker 2
34:15
Thank you know, I would say early on when I first got back. I used to.
Speaker 1
34:19
Bother me. Yeah I am sure that form.
Speaker 2
34:21
Others. More appreciative for it but earlier on when I first got back because everything was so real to me, I had some good friends that encouraged me out of that stage and then getting involved with the VFW that helped because they were, there's a model among the post was, there's no one left behind type deal. Where there's a lot of Vietnam Vets who were spit on when they got home, and they have always made it a point to say, thank you to the service for me. And so once I learn a little bit more about it and got involved with the VFW, I was like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1
34:52
More comfortable and more comfortable with it. I am a very kind of curious and interrogative person. I want to know people. Well, it's just kind of my impulse but I always worry. Am I pushing too far in making the other person uncomfortable by making those sorts of enquiries? I will say that my track record is pretty good because I find that when you want to have a real conversation with somebody, there may be some initial resistance to that. But once you get into the conversation, it can be life changing. Changing really for both parties. My dad fought in World War Two, And I think that generation was famously unwilling to talk about their War experiences. And I wonder how many World War Two veterans are, Korean veterans to suffer terribly to the end of their days because they could never come back and talk about what they did. Right? Well I just met you today but I can already. I am already very confident that you will have quite a positive Legacy, but we will The way that you talk about your situation with your openness, your courage, I am honored that we had this conversation today. Thank you very.
Speaker 2
35:59
Much. I will thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1
36:02
Jim, what I am taking away from the conversation with Andrew is, is its a reminder that it's hard to know how much we should share with our co-workers about what's going on in our personal life. Ideally, we're in a situation where that sharing is respected. Wherever there's a trusting space for that information to be shared and it's also important that we get the accommodations that we might need. I would tend to argue that sharing more is better than sharing less. I think the people that work with you will very likely support you. If they know more about you, they're probably struggling with issues of their own, if you're in a management position and you sense that one of Please be struggling for some reason if you see behaviors that seem awkward or off, you know, you don't have to accuse them of anything but you certainly can inquire, you know, how you do. I noticed, you know, in the in this meeting that you reacted in a certain way or there're times when I feel you shut down, there's, you want to give examples when you do that, but don't let somebody flail and suffer. And underperform without saying something about it. Now, how much they want to share with you about what's actually going on, is has to be up to them, but you need to open that door whenever you can. And let them know that you have noticed, we talked about that a lot in our leadership. Workshop is just noticing people paying attention to them, letting them know that you see them as a human being who's, who's worthy of your curiosity? If you don't work in a supportive environment, You don't have a level of trust in the workplace. I think what you just need to do is build your support system outside of work as best you can. Now this transparency about things like PTSD, also applies to the interview process and the evaluation process when you're applying for a job. I think that you probably should share anything that would materially impact your performance on the job or to result in any accommodations being required for that. I think that as an employer, as a person who's hired and employed people hundreds of people over the years, I would rather know that and have an opportunity to work with the person on that issue. Then to not know it and find out about it later. When you create relationships with the people at work, it you always have to remember as a manager that this is one of the most important relationships they have and maybe a transformative, and critical relationship that affects the rest of their lives. So, you know why not be open? Why not extend trust? Why not get deep and personal its life work. Work is life and life is work. Well, thank you for listening to path forward. Real conversations about leadership. If you enjoy this episode, really appreciate it. If you let us know, you can rate and review the show on Spotify and on Apple. Guests special. Thanks to all my guests for the level of vulnerability. They took in sharing their stories, if you'd like to be a guest on path forward. Please reach out via the contact form on my website path forward leadership.com. That's also where you can learn more about our show, my upcoming book. And my leadership services, this episode is produced by large media. You can find them at l.a. RJ media.com. As always, thank you for listening. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward.
