That whole experience has had lasting effects. Yeah, it has set me up in my new role to have a lot of trepidation. I broke trust with Myself by not listening to my gut that has never failed me. I love my ego and my pride to take over there because it was getting fed and I hurt myself very, very dearly.
I am Jim Hustler. And this is path forward. Real conversations about leadership in every episode. We're having real conversations with real people about real issues about the Journey. About the challenges about the joys. One thing leaders believe, is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the challenges, no matter how confusing or difficult things are, there's always a path forward leadership is a very creative process if you're doing it. For the past 21 years, we have been teaching leadership primarily through the process of great conversations. Vicki is a senior executive in the tech industry, and she's had a long career. She's in a field. That's historically, male dominated, and while she has a really impressive resume, one experience really stands out. And that's the experience that she wants to talk with us. About today, she had three, you know, really hard years in one job and that sugar to her core and made her question. Everything she knows about at her work and what she wants to get out of it and where her career is going. Vicki. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being our guest today.
Thank you. I am excited to be here.
28 years in the same industry. Wow, congratulations, I guess. Yeah.
I am not so sure that's warranted at.
This point. Yeah I mean for somebody that doesn't work in Tech describe, maybe how the leadership environment might be different from it might be in another industry.
If you're not Hands-On in the mire every day, you tend to become more distant from the tech and understanding everything in a, you know, very detailed fashion. If you get into a situation where you're like, gosh I don't want to do this anymore. If you have been in leadership long enough you're kind of stuck.
Okay so you by advancing in the hierarchy, you maybe tend to lose your skills a little.
The At skills and it isn't that you know I mean I go and certify all the time and different things but even then if you're going to be a good leader, if that is the role you're going to do, it's going to take more time away from the hands on it started almost, you know, probably within a year of me going into leadership and things were changing and evolving since I wasn't Hands-On as the that Evolution was happening and then as I have gone up higher to where I now lead leaders it's even more. So It isn't to say, don't bring a lot to the table in that way. But depending on the company, and the culture, I have been devalued in certain places and I have been really valued and others, so It's Tricky.
Devaluing. So where I have had issues is that if you go in, let us say, you're hired into an organization and the person that's hiring you in is like hey we need your leadership. Like you have tons of Enterprise level Ville experience. We need you to come in, we have a ton of inexperienced, Tech engineers and, you know, we need you to get processes strategy. All of these things in place to move this team forward. But the culture of the organization, has a lot of technical leadership because they have promoted within, right? And so as you're working with different peers that may not be as strong in the leadership space, they can tend to do Value you as overall because you're not as technical as they are anymore. So it really can be you know, per culture type of situation. Somebody with great intent, pull somebody in that can tend to struggle.
So there's a kind of pecking order based on your technical knowledge.
Is yeah, and really depending on the culture. How you're treated as a result, I am a leader that you can drop in the absolute middle of Chaos and I will create structure and I will create, you know, a very good path forward that is healthy and safe and supports the business in a way that it needs to be supported. So, somebody like me comes in and starts doing that. And then these other leaders that have kind of grown up through the organization, or like, who is this person, and they can tend to look for things. Not like, hey, what's the great thing is she bringing here's what she's not bringing.
As you look back on those kind of experiences, where maybe you felt devalued or undervalued, is there anything that you would do differently, if you went back into some of those situations to do it over?
Again? There was one whole experience where I wish I wouldn't have done it. I am.
Have done it at all or would have done it.
Differently. Not have done it. Now wouldn't have done it at all and it's something that will impact me for a long time. I interviewed with this company, I interviewed with them for a senior leader rule. Eight for eight hours and throughout that eight hours. I am interviewing them just like they're interviewing me. And at the end of the day, I said this is not a fit for me. I don't see a path to success for myself. I am a great leader, but culturally here, I am not going to fit like you guys don't want.
I and you could tell that from eight hours of.
Interviews I could tell that Ike. I looked at how people were showing up. I looked at, you know, through conversations with people. That would be my clothes peers. So I thought at the end of the day, I don't want to work with these people, and they are not culturally, I am just not going to fit here.
So let me guess you took the job. Anyway. No, yeah. So.
I told the recruiter, and he had never had that happen before, and he's been a recruiter for 20 plus years. Yeah. And then, the hiring director. Emailed me, like, a couple days later. He's like, what happened? So, I very thoughtfully laid everything out for him. And I just don't think it's a fad, and he's like, what you're saying is not, if it is exactly what we need, like, that's why I.
And so we spoke to my pride, he spoke to my ego, all of these things, right? And my gut the whole time. Jim is saying, don't do this. This is not good for you. Don't do this and I did it. And then everything that I was concerned about within this company, came to fruition within the first three months. And then it was a fight from the beginning to get anything done and my peers that I was concerned about working with ended up being exactly the problem that I thought it would be, you have a bunch of Engineers that are promoted into leadership, which is a huge problem in it that have zero emotional intelligence. Hmm, next to no self-awareness, my leader that I reported to was extremely difficult. So, I tried to quit at the 10 month, Mark, I am like, Yep. This didn't work. I have You Know, lesson learned, right? And so, my boss brought in the SVP of the company, to talk to me and talked me into.
Staying, are you sorry, that you got talked into that or do you think? Yes, I am. Okay.
So the next two years were an absolute nightmare. I was trying to hold on through February of 2022. Cuz I was going to get a massive payout, and I ended up leaving three months early because it was so bad, and I was being treated so poorly that it just didn't go along with my personal values to stay there because of a large sum of.
Money. Okay. So treated you poorly, I would like to, let us talk about what that looked like. Is this an issue? Where your ideas got shut down? Is this an issue of where these issues?
Of trust. So I was hired ended of this one later, he ended up leaving for a contentious reason. And I got shifted to another part of the organization that was considered less than a devalued me. To shift me over there, and I was worried about that change because here, I am trying to launch this program to fix this major issue for the organization, and I am like, this is going to be a problem. Because I am not going to be as valued. I am not going to be able to get as much done, but I was trying to be a team player like hey. All right, if you guys need this I am happy to do this and continue to move on this. So they shifted me under another leader. That didn't really have experience in my space. We didn't mesh very well, you know, I am trying to get this program going, we get funded, we get defunded, we get a head count here. It gets pulled, so we could Have anything for it, for two years. But we had everything planned and ready. And so when I say wasn't treated, well, I wasn't. I kept being told I needed to do this, but I wasn't enabled and empowered to do this.
One of the most fundamental needs that we all have in the workplace and one of the most difficult things, I think, sometimes for leaders to provide is Clarity, it's a, it's a word that I you have used more and more over the years, and it sounds like there was a lack of clarity, maybe not only with you, but with the people that hired you. So I am hearing that as a problem, and I am also hearing a lack of sponsorship or support for you, right? So here we're going to ask this person to go in and be a change agent. And we're going to ask them to step into a situation where there's somebody already there who has their own turf and their own style and that requires kind of extraordinary level of having your back. In that sort of situation is that part of what was missing for?
You. Absolutely. And I will say, and I am very fortunate to be able to say this, but that this opportunity was the first time in my career, and over 25 years, that I didn't have a connection with any of the leaders that I had at this organization over the three years.
Okay, let us stop, let us stop right there because that's, that's such a critical point. I was going to ask you this. It ever happened to you?
Oh yeah, it never had no.
So, you didn't have a connection with them. So break that down a little bit for me. And tell me what. That means.
Connection to me is that we are engaging on a regular basis that there is two-way trust. And to way honest communication that I can feel empowered to move things forward and do this person has my back and that person knows that I am going to See what's coming. And I am going to keep them ahead of the game on this that I am going to deliver anything and everything that needs to get delivered. That I am going to make the tough decisions and do it in a professional way. And I am going to be a steward of the company on their behalf.
You know, Marcus Buckingham one of the most widely read writers in the business world. He says, for example, people don't want feedback as much as they just want people to pay attention to them, right? And to know where they are and who they are. AR, and that, that simple idea of connection is much more important than any sort of formality in the relationship, right? So, right, these people didn't get. That is what I am hearing.
Yeah, they didn't. And for me, the basis of that is me, giving them kind of my plan, how to move things forward, and making sure that we are aligned. And what I found when I went to this company, I on-boarded myself, I didn't even have a conversation, the first six or eight weeks with my boss. That hired me in So, I immediately went to work and started getting to know. The team's I was going to be working with and this other area. The other thing I was up against is that one of the manager that I was hired in over who had just gotten into leadership, maybe three or four months earlier had fancied himself getting my role and there was a disconnect between our leader and kind of where he was. So there was probably resentment coming in. He Was kind, but he ended up being a very manipulative subversive type of person.
What happens in that situation Vicki is that, if there is a lack of clarity in that situation, the person who didn't get the job, well, often retreating to a very passive-aggressive modality to kind of reclaim their power even though they can't claim it, you know, institutionally or through title They still want to reclaim their power, everybody says, ever the greatest fear that human beings have is Heights or public speaking. The biggest fear that human beings have is loss of status. So, all of a sudden you come in and all kinds of people status alarms, go off that they're going to lose status because you're here now. So, so how do you overcome that?
I like to get in into any new leadership situation and you know stablish trust as much as possible and that's a lining my Words with my actions and what ends up happening to me and it always does. And it's especially with men. I will just be super honest, you know, I am a gregarious personality. I love to, you know, I find humor in things, I can yuck it up with the best of them, you know, and people will always test, they will test, how much can I get away with here? She's nice, she engages, she smiles. I think that I can get away with quite a lot here. They always test it, and then they hit that boundary, and they're like, whoa, that is a solid boundary. And so it's this back and.
Forth. They see that as a potential weakness for them to.
Exploit. Absolutely. You know, the culture at that particular organization does 2. Go into it a little bit more. It was like they really, you know, encourage everybody to challenge each other, which I am all about. I love good healthy challenge. And debate, like that's what were there for. We're not there to just go and never be questioned. I love that I can do that all day, but when you're dealing with a group. So the average age of the employee and this company was 27. We had a ton of just fresh grads at a college that are software engineers, and they, you know, there isn't, I mean, I will say it I am an old woman in this industry in my mid-40s. It's like Akane. She's starting to smell, she's that old. I mean it's just that's the problem. And, so I am like so that by itself was like my God, what am I doing here? What am I doing here? And it quickly became clear that they needed the maturity in the experience because the bulk of the employees didn't have that. But what you also get in those situations in a culture where that is encouraged and fostered, is a bunch of people that don't know how to do and challenge appropriately. Lee, there's a very fine line between challenging and debating and polarizing.
When I hear that sort of comment, my brain goes into different directions, right? Because when we Challenge, and I am known as a pretty challenging individual myself, but I am a guy. So, maybe that makes it a little easier for me. I don't know, but there's responsibility on both sides of that equation, right? Both sides of that relationship. There's responsibility to challenge effectively. And there's also To be challenged effectively. Absolutely. And so when I hear that, people say, they want to be challenged, but they don't really want to be challenged. That always shows up for me that oh, wow, there's a gift. There's maturity in learning to challenge effectively, but you also shouldn't have to be so damned careful, either. Right. This has been frustrating for me throughout my career. Is cheese. Can I just say what I want to say? And not have everybody running for the.
Exits and I agree with that too. The point, but the reality and the workplace today Jam is, people are very, very sensitive. And so when you do Challenge in a way that it can even be down to the individual, I will take own is sin that it wasn't just me crystalline about these different individuals in these kind of challenges. They would have the ear of senior leadership and be like I am going to challenge this, and yet they were absolutely aggressive and nasty to people that weren't that senior leader, right? Boldly is what they ended up being. It was fostered because that senior leader wasn't ever present in those conversations. You know, I had a conversation with a VP and one of his principles and this guy is so aggressive and coming at me. He's like you look me in this camera and you tell me you don't have my solution and did it. I mean he's pointing at me our chirping he's totally and my boss is in there, his bosses in there they're not saying anything, I back him down and in his boss is smiling. So we get off that call, This Guy's clearly a loose cannon. Normally, I would have hash it out with him and said, don't ever talk to me that way again, but I knew it would escalate. So I went to his leader because I also needed to talk to his later about his behavior. And I said, listen, I don't allow people to talk to me that way. I don't allow it in my personal life, and I really don't allow it in my professional life. Him brain-dead or this is going to escalate very quickly and I know you need him and I said furthermore I don't appreciate your behavior in that meeting as you're smiling and amused by his behavior. And he goes, oh I was smiling because I was uncomfortable. So you knew there was a situation and you did nothing. So that's just kind of that's just one of many of those types of.
Examples. Yeah. A couple of things here, and thanks for sharing that. I mean, it's a, that's Probably a story that a lot of people who are listening can.
Accountability is, is kind of central tent pole for the organization and it kind of holds everything up. If you're engaging, somebody with somebody who's not being held accountable by their boss, then that makes it very difficult for you. Now I can imagine a scenario in which going to directly to the person might have worked but I heard some pretty combative language from you in this. Conversation that would have made me concerned about how you would have approached that person about that issue. And you know.
so I would have made it very clear and because of how aggressively he came at me in that conversation it would have escalated for sure.
Okay, I can only trust that's true. That there would have been no way to go to that person and say listen. I was very uncomfortable in that conversation. I mean when you address an issue like that you absolutely have to own What you're feeling all. You can really comment on any situation is how you felt. You can't put it any thoughts or intentions into the other person's mind. You just can't do that. I get that you got defensive and I get that. You wanted to fight back. Is there any concern I had? I should have about the way that you approach, that, if you don't mind me asking.
I don't, I was clear. I was, I mean, I think it was validated when his leader said I was uncomfortable, right? And that's why he was smirking. Yeah. And there were other people in there that were witness to the behavior that have the same feelings, because I checked with them for feedback afterwards and said, listen, did I misread that? They're like, what was going on? What was happening?
And I assume this isn't an isolated circumstance that this.
Person. No, it ends up this person and I even said that I am like, I am sure I am not the first person to come to you, because this is the first time I have ever met this guy. I never met him or worked with him.
In prayer, so he was just pissing on his fire hydrant. When you-know-who was in charge, right? Yeah, those are difficult people to deal with. Sometimes the bully can be diffused, pretty quickly, if somebody stands up to them, right? And I mean, this is kind of the rule about bullies is they will be bullies as long as they get away with it, but if their boss wasn't willing to take action on it and their response was to, it was to be uncomfortable and not doing anything about it. That's pretty tragic leadership right there. So you.
Can see my boss was in there too and didn't do anything about it, so it made it. Just yeah, it just speaks to the bigger thing.
Yeah. So you have used the word culture, a lot in this conversation and I appreciate that because it is so essential to our experience at work. Now, that now that you have had this experience and you walk into a new extend, new environment, what are some of the cultural things? You're looking for? How would you describe a really positive culture is a big word? And I just, I like to break it down when I can.
Yeah. And I just did this through a job search. So when I left that company eventually I took nine months off. And so when I was doing my job search, that's Exactly what I was sussing out which is, is it a culture of feedback and safety and Not Duplicate the mistake I made figuring out if they find certain people. So valuable that those people get away with anything and everything or is everybody expected to show up as professionals and engage in a way that is productive. And, so I dug into that on my job search.
How did you do that clearly the extended interview process with the previous employer? Raised some concerns with you where you're right? Are you able to find out what you need to find out in that process to make that decision?
Number one? I expressed what I needed, right in my leaders and what I desired in that Dynamic, what characteristics I need in a leader that I am going to, you know, connect with the fact that I have had experiences. Where that wasn't that great in that it wasn't something that I could sustain. Like I was very honest in that.
Process because the relationship between you and your future. Boss is so important. I think a lot of people would probably have a lot to learn from you in regard to how you're going about making these choices.
That whole experience has had lasting effects. Yeah, it has set me up in my new role to have a lot of trepidation. Mmm. It's like I am .
Just a little bit of your mojo.
Oh, for sure. And it what it really called out for me, Jim is that my work came in way too much on my self-worth, versus who I am as a human being, who Vicki shows up day in and day out as a spouse. As, you know, all of these different things. Taking a hit there, impacted me greatly. I broke trust with Myself by not listening to my gut that has never failed me. I love my ego and my pride too. To take over there because it was getting fed and I hurt myself. Very, very dearly. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, we're all sensitive in terms of our sense of our self. I love that you use the word trusting in trust in yourself because there's a lot of evidence that your ability to trust others. It comes directly from your yourself, trust level. I mean, if you can't trust yourself, then you quite naturally have to project out on the world.
That other people are as untrustworthy as I am with myself so you kind of have to learn to trust.
Again. Exactly. Even in this new role that is just this really wonderful company with a wonderful Mission and I love my entire team and I love how culturally diverse it is. And you know, I always have to remind myself. It's like, check the motivations and intent here. There's zero bad. There's nobody's trying to manipulate you right now. Nobody's trying to shame you. You. So I am getting better and better as I am getting more subtle than, for sure. But it's going to be a journey after that last bad experience. I thought about getting out completely. I am like, maybe you just don't fit here anymore, maybe it has changed so much that you don't have impact here anymore and you need to rethink, you know, and then I thought well I could go maybe try to be an individual contributor or some and like geez I am not even I don't qualify for that.
Anymore. You're in an age where those kinds of questions frequently come up. I am significantly older than you but I can remember very much being 47 and whether it was through that type of experience or not, I think it's a time in your life when you naturally start to ask some of those.
Questions that's reassuring. That's super helpful because I attributed to this horrible experience. And the other thing I struggle with I have this many years of leadership experience. And I am not in a director role.
So you feel like you have an advanced as much as you.
Should. Well, I don't know that I want to this is the struggle for me, is I have these outside forces saying you have so much experience. You have done a director job at other companies, it just wasn't called that. Why aren't you going for the bigger title more money? All of these things. And it's been a struggle for me because I am not the person that wants to just go up and up, I have You enjoy the people that I work with, and what I do every day.
A metaphor that I have been using with people recently is I talk about this heavy-duty driving capitalist system that we live in and there's no greater example of hard driving capitalism than the tech industry. The metaphor, I have come up with is at a pretty early age in your case. It was 19. Somebody walked you up to like this, gigantic River, this Ali fast-flowing River, and they say if you want to be a success, you got to jump in the river and the river are powerful. But it's what you have to do to be successful. If you want to make money and you want to have a house and you want to, you know, go take European vacations. You got to jump in the damn river, right? And what happens is a lot of people jump in the river, and then they can't get out. They get into the faster flowing parts of that River, and they're looking to grab a branch or something to get the hell out of that. Because they just don't want to be in that River anymore and there's other people who love it, right? And they just they don't want it to ever end, but it's hard to get out of that River. It's hard to say, I don't want to be the boss. I don't want to be the director. I just want a really good job that I care about, but there's there is judgment about that. It's so sad. But there still is judgment about.
That. Well and I feel like this current company is developing me and that way too. And it's like, if you say, you know what I am good here. Are seen as having a lack of ambition and that's absolutely not the case. It's really struggling up against my own values around. What do I want to? If I am going to work, if I am going to do this every day, I want to be really as close to the tech as possible and working on really cool things and you know, delivering amazing results and that feels good to.
Me. Yeah, I understand that certain point the crap associated with hierarchical advancement. It might not be much of a motivator anymore. If you have had those titles and you have had, you know, VP position or whatever that may be less important to you as you get older and more advance in your career than just being a Difference Maker and actually being able to get things done and do the work that you really enjoy, right? I am just releasing a book called stepping up or stepping aside, which is all about this journey of hierarchical advancement in deciding whether we want to continue that or whether we want to step aside and find a different role in our company but it doesn't mean you won't be a leader. Yeah you want to be a leader other either way I can hear that very strongly with you. Did you still want to influence, you still want to lead, but maybe some of the other crap that we deal with in organization and politics is of no interest in you?
Anymore. I mean this is just self work that I need to continue to do to be okay. It's like really driving to what I want to do and there are dredger rolls and certain companies that I would love to have and There're ones that I probably would not because it distances me too much. It isn't to me. I am capable it isn't a capabilities.
Issue. Yeah, I don't hear that. Yeah.
Yeah. It's a what am I going to enjoy?
Are you doing enough in your personal life to fill some of those gaps? I mean, I am onto nonprofit boards. Now, for example, and that's filled some of that gap for.
Me. I will share just a very personal thing, but I am a recovering alcoholic. You know, I do a lot of service work. Around that I also live on a farm and I have horses and I have dogs, I don't have children. My husband and I were like, we're blissfully titled free.
But more and more people are joining you in.
The yeah. Right. You know, I love kids but it's just, you know? So building up this Farm designing how everything's going the health of my family. I am like, that's where you need to derive your worth from. So yes, I have had to actively seek out other ways too. To drive.
That. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing that. The struggle with alcohol. Does that play into the trust issue? We talked.
About. Yes, yes, and but what it also does, Jim is. You know, when you work a program, you're required to be a different human being. You don't get the luxury of showing up for scuse, my language and to be an a******. You don't get that luxury anymore. You need to show up. You need to be a decent human being. If you are not, you need to atone for that, and you need to behave differently if you are going to stay sober. And so I take that really seriously. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's funny too, because all of us that are in recovery, there's specific language, we use. And I will hear somebody else. And I am like, oh and you know, we find each other in the workplace because most of us don't, don't readily talk about it, right? It's dangerous to talk about it, it's stigma. There's a lot of stigma around it and I have years of sobriety. And, and so that's been a tricky thing to navigate in the place where it's like, I have shown up to a company day one, and they have alcohol everywhere in the office. Open bottles of liquor. And let us take a shot to celebrate you joining, and I am like.
I recently had a health setback. It's not a big deal, but I can't drink alcohol. Or I can only drink very, very small amounts of alcohol, and I am already finding a lot of discomfort and social situations because of that. And I think employers probably need to be a little more sensitive about that.
It's a problem and it took me while they had pressured me enough. Because certainly I didn't want to open up about that on day one. Right there has to be a lot of trust established for me to say. Hey, this is how I live my life, but I finally just said, listen, I don't drink. Okay, I lost my screen time as privileges years ago. You go like, oh, got it. Okay. You know, I mean it's up not being that big of a deal.
I hope you can give yourself credit for, you know what you, what, you have.
Accomplished. Yeah, and I do feel good about that. That and I have a lot of relationships that have maintained over the years that, you know, are very fulfilling as a result of.
Leadership. That's a good sign that you have given a lot of yourself and yeah, that's great. Yeah. What's the number one challenge for you? Moving forward from a leadership perspective.
I think it is just reestablishing that trust in myself you know to your point starting their will allow more trust for others. How do you do that? I think it's building blocks. It's for me it's little things of taking risks and Taking Chances and seeing how things land and being open to the feedback around that and being able to change and pivot and do that like work my way through those situations.
You have been just lovely to talk to and I have enjoyed it very to very much and thank you for everything you have shared. I am sure a lot of people listening will have a lot of value to pull out of this conversation so thanks very much.
Great. It was a pleasure Jim thank.
You take care. I have my own set of takeaways from the conversation I just had with Vicki. I think what really has nested in with me about that conversation is just this person's Journey, she acknowledged a problem with alcohol. She acknowledged an issue with reaching a difficult stage in her, career reeling sense from a negative experience with a previous job And I admire her for her resilience and you know, getting back up and moving forward. But you can see that she's at an age and a time in her career where she's been maybe wounded a little bit, or she's questioning maybe the assumptions that she had about her career aren't playing out exactly the way she might have expected them to and I guess you know, being the age that I have, you know, I get my first social security check next month, I just I want you to know that, you know, that's normal. That's the when you go through a long career, you're going to have stops and starts, and you're going to have times when you run into the wall and you're going to have times when you have to question a lot of the assumptions you have made about your career and even about who you are. And I guess I just want to say that when those times come to try to embrace them as much as you can. I went through a devastating Foolishly difficult, time in my late 40s around the same time that Vicky was describing her challenges. And I came out, it just in a, in a much better place, but the only reason I was able to come out in a better place is because I confronted head-on what was going on there. I didn't shy away from it. I didn't try to pretend that I wasn't struggling. I acknowledged, especially to the people who love me that I was struggling and I heard that Vicky has some work to do. Like all of us to kind of decide what she wants the rest of her life to be in to look like, and also to recognize that whatever she thinks that is now might change another five or ten years down the road. And that's okay. So I was very honored by Vicky the strength of her character and how the work that she's doing. We often Talk Amongst ourselves about whether our clients are willing to do the work. It's a term, we use a lot and Vicki's. Lee willing to do the work and is actively doing the work. And I think she's going to be just fine because of that. Well, thank you for listening to path forward. Real conversations about leadership. If you enjoyed this episode, really appreciate it. If you let us know, you can rate and review the show on Spotify, and on Apple podcasts, special thanks to all my guests for the level of vulnerability. They took in sharing their stories, if you'd like to be a guest on path forward. Please reach out via the contact form on my website path forward leadership.com. That's also where you can learn more Her about our show, my upcoming book, and my leadership services. This episode is produced by large media, you can find them at La RJ media.com. As always, thank you for listening. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward.