My ability to choose people is a part of it getting better at asking the right questions as part of it. But at the end of the day, you know, one of them could just be bad luck, you know, five of them. Clearly, I am part of the.
Problem. I am Jim Hustler. And this is path forward. Real conversations about leadership in every episode. We're having real conversations with real people about real issues about the Journey about the challenges about the joys. One thing leaders believe, is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the challenges, no matter how confusing or difficult things are, there's always a path forward leadership is a very creative process if you're doing it. Well, for the past 21 years, we have been teaching leadership primarily through the process of great conversations. Our Guest today is my goal. He's an attorney, and he's worked at the same firm for his entire law, career, and all that time, he's been training under one very senior lawyer. And when his mentor retired a few years ago, Michael took over the firm inherited the entire operation overnight and now it's three years later and, and Michael still unpacking all The impacts of that change on his personal and his professional.
Life. I really went from you know zero leadership to assuming the mantle of a successful ongoing operation with three lawyers and to staff and so it's really just been a real work in progress. My mentor was rather anachronistic in his leadership style. If you even call it that a yeller a little.
Ered fashion blood and thunder.
Guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know the early days I was kind of just doing a bad impression of a bad boss and I suffer for it.
Would you describe him as successful as a leader? I mean apart from the personality or did he run a good firm?
He made a lot of money. So if that's the definition of success that some people use yes he was, and he was a brilliant lawyer. He trained me to be don't know how brilliant I am, but I am successful by that same metric and some of those things that made him a difficult boss. We made him an effective litigator.
So it's smartest guy in the room for sure yet. For sure. Yeah. So this person really commanded the ship for a long time. This was the culture that this person.
Developed a hundred this personality really, it was a.
Monarchy, right? Okay. And then he goes and, and you end up in the managing partner.
Correct? Yes, I went from owning zero percent of the company. Tony 100% of the.
Okay. Wow. What motivated you to take over the firm and what were you thinking? When you took it.
Over. Well I was essentially my mentors Squire for 18 years, and I was kind of stagnant in my growth is an attorney because he wasn't encouraging me. He wasn't trying to make me, you know, Lieutenant Colonel. It would I was just.
Up stuck at your rent and.
Older drone. But I was, I was the senior one there, so it was, it was always a natural progression. Yeah, I mean and it was the carrot that he Me in lieu of the others that are more conventional. Hey, it's 60. I am going to retire, man. And then you're going to be running this place in Ocean make money hand over fist, and so he stopped giving me raises really, but I just started working less. I was kind of the form, my increased compensation. And, so I was just kind of this think almost like a graduation day that loomed on the horizon, but instead of, you know, gearing up for it was almost the opposite. I was just Kind of like me and that half-marathon. I ran. I just got slower and slower as I got closer to the finish line. But it didn't.
Necessarily result in like a huge reflection on your part. This is sounds like something that would you just you were headed towards this for a long time and it was just the natural Next Step.
Yes. I mean that there was no.
Reflection. Like should I do this?
Yeah exactly. And I will say, you know, just the mechanics of a firm. It's To me it would have been worth, you know, 10 x dollars, right? Because, you know, he's with a few hours of Transitional services and forwarding the phone calls, he's really handing me the keys to a train moving at full speed and the chance to make all this money. So to me, it's worth this much but if I walk out the door to him it's worth one half a dozen because the Goodwill is all tied to the US. He made a modest choice and I think it was you know in recognition of the so-called sweat. The Loyalty royalties are really taken years of it. Yeah. Really important principle to me and it was a mutual thing that we had for each other. And.
How is his shadow kind of getting in the way for you?
The metaphor of the ship of Theseus? Always kind of stuck with me. So I hope help us less.
Educated people with the ship.
Of. So the notion of the ship of Theseus is, you know, what is the ship of Theseus as gradually. One Board gets replaced and later. Another Board gets replaced, maybe. 50 years later, none of the original ship is there and yet it's Ethical standing as a, as a Thing, Remains intact. And so, I have gradually replacing board by board. What there was. But, but it's still the Theseus, it is, and until and unless I choose to make it something else.
I will digress for a second but there's a famous experiment that was done with monkeys. They put a bunch of monkeys in a room, and they put a ladder up to a platform and there were bananas on the platform and the first time a monkey climbed the ladder they scientists would Water on the monkey, and the monkey would go back down the ladder. And so, every time, a monkey tried to go up the ladder to get the bananas, they get sprayed with water. So one by one, they replaced the monkeys. This kind of the ship of Theseus, right? One by one, they replace the monkeys. So they got to the point where the monkeys wouldn't go up the ladder. It all they did they just gave up trying and one by one they replace the monkeys until there were no monkeys left that had ever been sprayed with water and none of them would go up the ladder. So there's a strong historical memory around culture and behavior. How is, how is your current behavior at work colored by him by his presence?
As an attorney, 90% wish of the training is useful. And so, you know what would he do? Is the right question to ask, when I am litigating, when I am preparing for a deposition or whatever. But when it's time for performance, Is not so much and indeed, we didn't do performance reviews. So the very notion that I was having them was a deviation and answer your question. One staff member remains from his administration other than me, the rest have come and gone. And okay, I have had a high level of turnover in both attorneys and staff.
Okay? And that's part of your concern that you're not holding on to those people.
Correct? Yeah. And certainly my ability to choose people is a part of it getting better at asking the right. Right? Questions is part of it. But at the end of the day, you know, one of them could just be bad luck, you know. Five of them. Clearly. I am part of the problem. Yeah. Both my parents studied workplace psychology and so there was a textbook at home that I grabbed one day and drove into and always stuck with me. And, so I am steeped in the theory behind how to attract and retain good people and that made it even more frustrating. When I finally got to, you know, sit in the captain's Chair. And I crashed and burned.
Basically, did you have it in mind that the firm would get bigger under your leadership?
I suppose I just kind of assumed that was the way it goes, the gold. I mean My Mentor. Again, it's another thing I am sure to rebel against because he had all the answers in life. The optimum model for maximum economic performance is three. Lawyers, one staff person. No refrigerator for snacks, etc. Etc.
Etc. So Michael you're a lawyer, Or is there something about being a lawyer that makes this situation kind of unique to that profession? What type of person is a lawyer? And how might that change the way that they lead in a business?
Setting, lawyers are generally pretty book-smart. We have a linear way of thinking I look at law school as sort of rewiring of the brain to weed out the emotional components and just focus on the rationality as a class of people, they're generally pretty competitive. Live. You know, the 20th century model hostile. And so as our society has moved away from it being normatively acceptable, to be a bully, it's become far more nuanced. How to Be an Effective competitive and a good way by the way. I am not saying the old days were better.
Hasn't the industry. Gotten a little Kinder in terms of just learning how to resolve.
Disputes. I mean, when I was in law school, 20 years ago, there was a requirement in local cases that you had to mediate a dispute in mediation. The word, the use of. Yeah, third-party intermediaries, usually retired, judge, or other neutral to help. So, that concept is not new, it's less, okay? To just be openly fighting for the sake of fighting.
So there's a couple of things here that are really striking about your situation. Let us talk about which patterns worked from the previous boss and which ones don't work. Now, the other thing I am curious about is you mentioned the both of your parents study, workplace, psychology? Yeah, and you're a lawyer. And so what I immediately start to wonder is the degree to, which you're trying to do this out of a textbook or out of some expectation. That there's a right way or wrong way to do this. You know, a legal profession is one or you screw up a punctuation on its ends and you can lose hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? I mean it's a, it's a crazy detailed. There's a right way to litigate. There's a wrong way to litigate there're winners and there're losers, it's generally pretty clear-cut. I just wonder if part of that is there's an expectation on your part that there's a formula.
Here. Yeah. I mean, lawyers in general, I would say, sort of lean into that sort of more academic right mindset as well. Neither the academic approach nor the sort of legalistic approach lends itself, well, to being emotionally intelligent intuitive to having curiosity towards your people learning to pay attention, and be open to nuance, and dealing with people was not intuitive to me at all. I am Clinically depressed. It's a genetic condition. And so yeah, there's a really steep learning curve. It really takes in my experience at least 10 years, before you really kind of have your own footing and confidence and can kind of Be Yourself the first few years. As a leader, I was kind of doing an impression of my boss as a leader, the first five years. As a lawyer, I am just doing an impression of him as a lawyer. And so there was very little of my authentic self in my day-to-day life, and that's hard. Do you mind if we talk about Your depression a little bit? I.
Mean, I am not a psychologist, but I am curious from a leadership perspective, because one of my favorite quotes about leadership is that leadership is a form of self-expression when it's done. Well, alright, it's you being the best version of yourself that you can be, and there's a lot of discipline and Leadership, but there's also just kind of lot of spontaneity and enjoy when it's done, well, what are people? All seeing when they look in your eyes when they come to.
Work. Wow, I don't know. I mean, perhaps this is The Human Condition, maybe it's just me, but depending on sort of what side of the bed you wake up on any given day, you can tilt your head one way and see. Oh, I miss, I am a very successful person. People love me. Got, you know, I would rather I do improv. I am quick on my feet. I am hilarious everyone just on the life of the party everyone. So lucky to be around me and you can you know like up on the other side of the bed and suffer from Imposter syndrome to the nth degree, and I am going to be exposed today. They're going to kick me out. No, no wonder everyone quits within, you know, six.
Months. Yeah. Do you wake up on that side of the bed more often than the other side or?
Do I do? Okay, I am on the right meds and in year, four of leadership, I am stepping in the bear trap less and less often well. So what's the bear trap? Oh just f******.
Up. Okay, is that in regard to client work or is that in regard to your relationships with?
Your I could be anything. I mean I guess more about my employees not to quibble. I wish I had co-workers a lot of days. I don't have co-workers. Okay, I have employees. What's the distinction for you? A co-worker would be appeared when I sign your paycheck, and I am I am training you as part of why you're here is to learn from me. And part of why I am here is to teach you. It's very lonely to be at the top alone. Are they creating that distinction or are you? Creating that distinction? I guess it's possible. I am creating it. But to me, it seems inherent in the system and I Talk to other sole practitioners or you know, people who don't have Partners as I don't have. And it isn't only because you don't have time to.
Talk to. It's actually an interesting distinction. I guess I am just not one that I thought about a lot is an employee versus a co-worker but you know it just looking at the language, they are very different and I don't think it should necessarily have anything to do with the hierarchy of the firm right? That you're the more senior partner in the firm and the others are less senior if you're solving Problems together and you're enjoying that process together and you're doing a good job. That sounds like co-workers to me.
Yeah. Yeah. We're doing cowork certainly and you make a point. If two people believe themselves to be co-workers then they are co-workers, right? Amen. Absolutely true. And so perhaps but to me it almost would be Dereliction of my duty as a leader to sort of view them as, as my co-workers. Like that, to me that sells short duties, that I owe them obligations that. I bear to make sure they have enough work to.
Teacher. They owe you things to the. Do you earn their billable rate and do good lawyering, right? Yes. So I am wondering about the distinction and whether it's a necessary or helpful distinction to make, I wonder what might shift for you. Yeah. If you just simply Get rid of that somehow. It's an, it's an.
Interesting notion. I sort of have this Vision, Michael Scott from the office. I am sure we were at the show when I think of a notion of sort of pretending. I am not really the boss. I am your friend, and I am you know, I am this, it sounds kind of.
It's still Rings. A little false to me. I get it, but it all depends on the context. And in certain context, viewing them as co-workers would probably be an emotionally healthy distinction for me to find ya. I often.
Use the example of, I wrote a book and the person that kind of co-authored the book with me as a gentleman named StevSteve and I work together in my business for about 10 years. Never socialized, didn't really share any interests out of outside of work necessarily didn't talk a lot about our kids, and our families and stuff like that. Incredibly close friends, despite the fact that there that we weren't friends in the, in the sense that you would use that term with Your neighbor or your brother-in-law, right? But we were friends because we both love the work we did, and we did it together in a committed and kind of harmonious way. And now that he's long retired and living in Mexico, we have become more friends on a personal level, but it was built on the working relationship. I think often people reverse the sequence, right? They think you know the office write it if I am their friend then Will develop a good working relationship. I feel like the working relationship. Absolutely comes first, that has to be established. And then I think friendship can often grow out of that ability of us to do good things together, because that's just a good.
Feeling the labels. I guess that they have whatever meeting we impute. I certainly don't feel that my co-workers employees, whatever you want to call, them are my friends, but maybe we are and I again, I don't know what's inside their hearts. I don't know how they Define friendship. I don't know if I would meet that definition, I know if it's important. Whether I do or not, I certainly want them to like me and respect me and be grateful for the chance to work together. I guess at the end of the day, if you're worrying about how other people feel about you, you're probably worrying about the wrong things. I would.
Think. Oh boy, let us unpack that one for 45 hours. Yeah. You're working really hard at this, aren't you?
I mean you just really working hard trying to figure this out and I just want to say a hunter that I mean I just I respect how seriously you're taking this and how hard you're working at it. God bless you and at the same time, I wonder if you're working too hard.
Yeah. Does that resonate at all on two levels one, just the notion of small businesses, not being able to turn down work and so am I working too hard in that sense, quite possibly? And then, in The sense, that's probably more fundamental and I think that you meant am I just thinking way too much and trying way too hard about basic things to get through the day that if I could just let go of.
And right? And that's why I kind of you know, I asked you about being a lawyer, right? Because what is the lawyer dual air? Make sure that everything is just right. You probably proofread everything you send out 18 times and have two people look at it. And I just wonder if there's a level of kind of perfection that you're striving for Or in this, that's not achievable. Or even necessarily desirable.
Yeah. It's quite possible. And you're absolutely right. I mean, I am the best proofreader in the office, which sometimes bothers me, but, you know, there's an art and a science to it, and there's just a sort of intangible want to, and I just happen to have whatever combination of abilities and defects that just make me Have to find those mistakes. And I mean when you're a small firm and you're litigating against these national law firms, you know, big firm BS, your work product can't look any worse in front of the judge. Then the, then the big guys. And so that was something my boss. I didn't mention this, but he had been trained a big worms. So I do feel as though I got a big firm training in a small firm and so yeah, one of the things I learned is, yeah, the work has to be perfect. The printed word has to be perfect. And there's probably very little doubt that I attempt to translate that into interpersonal interactions in a way that probably is at.
80. One of the things that has always kind of driven me a little bit crazy. I am in the leadership development business and doing it for 20 plus years and one of the things that always just irritates me is all the books that come out that say if you just do these three things, you know, or here's your lie, there, all list books, right? We're the guys. From the Harvard Business review, and we have studied businesses and all the really successful do businesses do these five things. So you should do these five things to. It's.
a you know if you pitch a book with a list is far easier to get it approved actually is flush it.
Out. It absolutely is. And, so I think what it does is it makes us Dumber. I think a lot of business books make is dumb because they, they infer that you can boil something as insanely complicated as leadership. Down into a formula or a list of things behaviors, right? When in fact what we want, our bosses to be is we want them to be human beings. Number one, we want them to be carrying human beings. Ethical human beings, but we, by no means, do we hold them to a standard of being perfect?
Yeah, I mean, I was an employee for the vast majority of my career in my life and it seems from what I remember being on that side of it. A far simpler thing. What do you want from your boss? You know treat me with respect right? Make sure my check clears. Mmm. You know if I tell you I need to go home for the day because you know, my water heater broke, then let me go, ask my opinion. Yeah.
Seek my knowledge helped me grow.
Yeah, same thing. You want from your.
Parents to a large degree, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. It's much simpler on that side of it.
That's a really neat roasting observation like that it did. It's simpler from the employees. Sider than.
It is from the league and there's just sort of few covenants and the beauty of being an employee is that you vote with your feet. Every single day. In my profession.
Partnership and especially in legal shows. And that's one of the things that translates pretty closely to real life is that, you know, lawyers, 67 years in. I want a piece of the business on our cut me in cut me how I make.
Partner. Yeah, Professional Services, firms of all sorts of.
What you really are. If I give you ten percent of my firm, you are essentially married to me. But in a Minority sense. Like I can still control exactly how much money you make. I can control everything about your life that I could control the day before. You got 10%, the difference is you don't get to just walk away, you know, owe me contractual obligations. Right? And so, it really is sort of double-edged sword and it just so happens, you know, as is implicit in what I told you, my mentor, did not believe one iota in cutting people in. Yeah, and I have rejected that I am going to offer ownership To my senior associate interesting. I want her in. I got ya, I want to keep the control but also have her, you know.
That could really change the dynamic and it.
Helps. Oh yeah, I really did because then, I mean pleased to hear that I.
Think that's good move. It might take some of the heat off you and give you a little more peer support. You mentioned that pure idea earlier about wanting to see people more that way than in a hierarchical science. I always point out to people that there's just an inherent Conflict in that simplest of models, there's a boss and there's an employee and there's just all kinds of potentially negative dynamics that show up for one reason alone. And that is the one person has more power in that relationship than the other person does anything. Anytime you have a hierarchy of any sort? It's a little bit of a Minefield because the person on the lower box, no matter how open they are and how friendly they are and how much esteem they have, For the person in the Box above them, the boxes above them. And I think that negatively impacts both parties in that relationship to not have the power shared more effectively. What do you need to hold on to and what do you need to let go of? How can you get to the point where you're willing to let other people help you more the whole idea that the boss has to be the person with the answers? I think it is a fallacy. Wow. That blows my mind.
Same or the Seth's have the answers. Well, they don't.
I guess no one could have the answers. The boss has to have the questions.
So let me see if I am tracking. Let us assume that the employee has an answer to when I still have to acknowledge that answer. I mean, I would of course, I get the idea of listening to your team and being able to identify a good idea and implement it. And I can also readily understand giving an employee autonomy over in my world, you know, a given case, right? And so in that, He or she has the answer to a specific question. But in general, please for me, you know, litigation and owning a business is a series of decisions. So let me let.
Me shift the question then what would your firm be like if you had how many you have three or four lawyers writing in your firm? What if all of them were better at being a lawyer than you were? Would that be a good healthy?
Firm? If I ran it rights, it sure would damn.
Straight well wanted to work towards that. It seems like you're humble enough to let go. What I would suggest is as you let go of that knowledge and you bring other people around you, you don't lose any of your power. You don't lose any of your influence, you don't lose any of your leadership. In fact, it that leadership likely expands and its influence. If you're not the smartest person in the room all the time.
I enjoy and I Grown too big to be able to do this on all but the minor stuff cases that we have is to collaborate with my team and kick it around. What's the best approach? I do believe, I do a good job of seeking input my default. When associate asks me you know what should I do here? We know, what do you think we should do? You know, give me your, give me your recommended best idea and then give me the second best idea and let me pick between them and then if.
Did they get to weigh in on your, on your?
Work? On the cases? We collaborate? Yes, I mean there's X percent of the cases where I am just. Yeah, an island unto myself, and I am, but I am trying to reduce the number of cases that meet that description. I am pushing 50 and I hope that by 50, if I am not fully out of the game that I am at least I can see the CD. Exit, your exit strategy.
Is to sell the firm at some point. Absolutely. I mean that's the way it goes and Professional Services. So correct me if I am wrong but I almost get the impression earlier you were talking about your depression which I really appreciate you sharing with us, something I struggled with in the past as well. Thank God, not for about 15 years now but it was a big part of my life for a long time. Have visible. Is that for people who work with you, I mean assuming you're still struggling with it, which I got the impression that it's still, it's still there?
I mean I have bad days, but we're good days in the Bad. My senior person, I have confided in. And you know if I am having an off day, I don't go out of my way to over share my personal life or my emotional temperature, but if I know it's going to impact them, you know, I might just say, hey, you know, and I went through a pretty difficult family thing in the past year. And so there were days when I was just like, hey, just so you know, I don't have it today. Yeah, I don't confide in the rest of my team to that level, so I don't The degree to, which they might. Be aware or not aware.
I will remind you that. I think it was twice early. In this conversation, use the term isolated that you talked about the kind of isolation of being a leader. Yeah. And that's a classic depressed person thing to say.
Yeah, I mean depressed people do feel isolated, give me just give me a.
Picture of maybe a year from now and just say if things go really well, what does it look like a year from now?
A year from now, I have got a partner, we have got new offices because I have only got three exterior offices. And so if I want to hire a fourth lawyer, which I am actually interviewing for that position. Now we either need to do a telework schedule or find some spot or find a new spot or make somebody have an interior.
Space suits, pretty cheaper. Oh, it's.
High. True it. So it will be a long time before the word cheap. It is definitely going.
In the right direction. Yeah. But it would be a huge bet on myself because it is a six-figure investment in tenant, improvements to move anywhere, but a year from now, I have made that bet and it's paid off, and we're 45 lawyers, 23 staff, haven't lost anyone to quitting or firing. And, and we have grown, and my people are picking up the brand that, that we teach, and I come to work. And I solve the Eels and help the people. I do drive home, most days with almost teacher like, you know, confidence that, I, that I help people. And so, the notion of doing that for more people, that's how I see growth.
When I asked you that question, you just a subtle shift and kind of your energy? I don't know if you even noticed.
I will take tomorrow over today.
Sure. Yeah. I mean, and I wonder how much of that, how much of that type of discussion about the future? And what we want this firm to be, would be something that would draw you and your coworkers. Yeah. Closely together and have them feel that they're part of that. I mean Vision doesn't have to be World. Peace Vision. Can be a year from now. We haven't. We have a better office and the year from now we're enjoying working together and a year from now I found the roll. That's most productive and helpful for this firm sharing those things with the people you work with can be really powerful you know. One thing I don't aspire to do on this podcast has its give any like cheap advice like you know like Tony Robbins Rah, go team, kind of stuff, but I think in your case, I am going to give a little bit of cheap advice and that would be if you can walk in the door of your building every day and really strive to have fun and not try to be the perfect boss. I think, I don't know. I feel like that might help.
Have you seen Ted lasso by chance? Yeah, I have. So I have been ruminating about the degree to which he is would be a model for me as a leader and I see a lot more Yes the know in that. Yeah.
because you're very nice person. I can tell that you have got a lot of warmth. You're emotionally invested in what you do. These are all great qualities for a leader to have and I think it might just be a matter of letting some of.
That loose and as a leader you have exponentially more power to do that because you absolutely do they don't they can't be the first one to start whistling unless you built a culture where they know they're safe to whistle right or yeah, or are.
You She ate that about them and encourage that part of them. I you know, I had a boss one time. He said leadership is a thousand little moments of Truth every day. It's just you have to be in the moment. You have to be locked in to that moment because every moment There's an opportunity to lead people every gesture every time you pass by them in the office every time you say hello in the morning every time you pour your coffee every one of those moments is an opportunity. And it's a hell of a responsibility to think of that way. It can be burdensome to think that way. It can also be kind of liberating. Like my God, I have, I have so much power. I have so much influence, it's not a huge.
Leap for me because that's my job. And so, just extending it to the trip. Down the hall to fill. My water bottle is not a huge paradigm shift for me to adopt. So I definitely will and that's I appreciate the Insight very much.
I have enjoyed talking to you. Thank you.
For listening to me and Giving me your.
Advice. Yeah, I think I could work for you.
Yeah, that s***. We need people. I will leave you my card. All.
Right deal. Thanks again. Thank you. There is no perfect way to be a leader of people. There is no 5 step formula or 10 step formula, there are things that work. There are things that you should learn. There are tools that you can use. There are practices that you can learn that are going to be somewhat effective on a repetitive basis. But part of the art of leadership, is understanding the uniqueness of each situation. Each person, each challenge that you have and not, Trying to apply a set of rules or practiced moves to each situation. There's a tremendous level of spontaneity in leadership and that requires a lot of trust in yourself. That requires a lot of self-confidence and it requires you to get ego out of the way and understand that you're not always going to have the right answer and you're not always going to have the right tool to use in the right circumstance. So get over yourself. Enjoy yourself, Express Yourself your employees. Want you to be a whole real person, they want to know, you warts and all and the most important thing for them to know is that you care about the business that you care about them as human beings and that you're willing to learn and you're always willing to try to do your best but don't try to be the perfect bus. It's a stale act it's not one that resonates well, don't walk into a room and try to impress people walk into it and try to lead people very different. I hope Our guests can walk into his office tomorrow and loosen some of these bonds that are holding to the standard of perfection. There is no perfection in leadership. There's only constant Improvement, striving curiosity and joy. Well, thank you for listening to path forward, real conversations about leadership. If you enjoy this episode, really appreciate it. If you let us know, you can rate and review the show on Spotify, and on Apple podcasts, special thanks to all my guests for the level of vulnerability. They took in sharing their stories, if you'd like to be a guest on path forward. Please reach out via the contact form on my website path forward leadership.com That's also where you can learn more about our show, my upcoming book. That's also where you can learn more about our show, my upcoming book. And my leadership services, this episode is produced by large media. And my leadership services, this episode is produced by large media. You can find them at l.a. You can find them at l.a. RJ. RJ. Media.com, as always, thank you for listening. Media.com, as always, thank you for listening. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward.