Holding Others Accountable
Episode Details
Transcript
One of the most common questions I hear is, “what can I do when someone I depend on isn’t performing?” I explore this issue of accountability with JT, along with the need for structure and “real” conversations to create clarity in our organizations.
Speaker 1
00:00
I just don't like doing sales right? And I don't like that sort of having to sell some things. Like I like an idea, and I am in can be enthusiastic about it and I kind of want you to come along but I don't want to kind of make you come along. It's hard for me. Sometimes I think as a leader to know when to apply that pressure I kind of just want. They just be who you are. So it's hard for me to have wouldn't know when to apply pressure both on my team and with partners and clients.
Speaker 2
00:28
I am Jim Hustler and this is path. Forward, real conversations about leadership in every episode. We're having real conversations with real people about real issues about the Journey. About the challenges about the joys. One thing leaders believe, is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the challenges, no matter how confusing or difficult things are, there's always a path forward leadership is a very creative process if you're doing it. Well for the past. 31 years. We have been teaching leadership, primarily through the process of great conversations. Today, I am talking with JT, JT is a strategic and Technical consultant at a company, where his clients are dealing with all sorts of big complex projects. He's an experienced consultant has a lot of years of experience and is currently in a director level.
Speaker 1
01:26
Position within our organization. We do both strategy and actual development and sometimes I kind of sit between the two to kind of help be that translator if you will. Most of my role is helping clients realize what they have. First of all, what their data problems are, technical problems are and then how to resolve those. So, the value I bring as an either as a technical director or now, as in strategy and foresight really comes from my ability to communicate rather than my ability to also understand technical complexities, a lot of technical people, they just communicate differently. They have been trained to communicate differently with all the times. Think a little bit differently, right? As the value, that they bring their brilliant in those areas.
Speaker 2
02:07
They need to have their own language as well. It has on language.
Speaker 1
02:09
Both from a domain perspective and also in just the way they think about something like I like something that's factual and one way to somebody that's very deeply technical maybe a little bit more subjective to somebody. Maybe it comes from little more business and sees things a little bit more in the fluid range. And so most of My Success early on as a professional is really come from that ability to translate between the two.
Speaker 2
02:35
The ability to communicate a complex idea in a clearer way. I am not going to say a simple way but a clear way is a real art to that you take this massive amount of Technology that's involved in getting data and all that stuff and you're trying to make it real for them in terms of the actual day-to-day impact it's going to have on their.
Speaker 1
02:57
Business. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And it's true not just the clients but it's also true with partners. And it's also true with.
Speaker 2
03:03
Regime. It's very cerebral stuff.
Speaker 1
03:06
It's very cerebral stuff. Sometimes. It feels like I put in a couple hours work and it feels like a whole day.
Speaker 2
03:11
Oh yeah, no I know the feeling. Yeah. It's like writing a book right? When I am in the process of writing a book, two hours man is like more than I can handle. They say that the human brain I think raised roughly three and a half or four pounds. And when the, when the human brain is involved in any kind of significant Discovery or cognitive function, apparently can use something like Over 30% of all the oxygen in your body when you're working on it. So, so people, in our, in our lexicon, in our business, We call this the boot in the sandal, we call the type of work you do. That's out of memory. That's kind of tactical. That's kind of repetitive in any way as you as your boot work. That's when you have your work boots on when you have your sandals on is when you're you know the idea of like a Greek philosopher or something, you're actually thinking deeply about something. And we always want to make sure people understand that cerebral work is really hard and you can't do an 8-hour straight stretch of it if you're human.
Speaker 1
04:13
Yeah. And I think that's really important for anybody in an organization understand whether you're a leader or you're a boot on the ground so to speak, right? It's really important to understand that, that Tempo difference is different for the different type of work, that's being done because I think sometimes especially in larger organizations where value is placed on time at desk that can seem Balanced. And I think, just approaching that with a more open understanding of those, the different shoes that everybody's wearing, like, that different shoes versus different hats. I am going to start, you know.
Speaker 2
04:43
Cake shoes. You can still that. Yeah, buy my.
Speaker 1
04:45
Book by the book. Any get right through. There you go. But we're.
Speaker 2
04:51
So what's working for you? What's not working for.
Speaker 1
04:54
You? Well, I am a pretty easygoing person so that's working for me and a lot of good ways. I am very value-driven and that's working for me. Both with my clients and with my team, right? So value-driven meaning. Yeah, so my values come more from personal relationships rather than transactions. So I am always thinking of the implications of who people are as people and understanding that's kind of balanced with the needs of an organization or business, which sometimes are a little bit more spreadsheet-based or numbers.
Speaker 2
05:30
Crunched. So there's a, there's an ethical on a value. Yes, under. How you see your for sure? Okay, so that's working for you. You for that works great. You feel that the business you're in allows you to live that way and deliver work to your clientele within that frame of values. That's really.
Speaker 1
05:46
Important. Yeah, and that's one reason I am really happy to be working where I am at is because I have worked for a larger consulting firms or, that's absolutely not the case. And so, it was really refreshing to come to a place where it kind of matched my value set. It's like, okay, I can see myself here.
Speaker 2
06:00
For ya, what a long time. So I am just going to guess that you have a leadership challenge. Across the board. We do you have direct reports to have people who report directly to.
Speaker 1
06:09
You on an individual project, the company as a whole is a flat organization. But on individual projects for sure.
Speaker 2
06:15
Okay, but generally you're working across silos, you're working with people that generally don't have a direct reporting relationship to you a correct. Except yeah, absolutely. And that to me is always a fascinating area of leadership, right? Because I call it leading without portfolio. Right? It's your a thought leader, you're a project leader, but you don't have like a department of people that write that report into every day. So.
Speaker 1
06:41
They don't have a mandate to actually follow what I am saying. Right kind of lead, right? Quite a different way. Right, right.
Speaker 2
06:47
So within that context, what kind of challenges do you find?
Speaker 1
06:51
So I am very kind of like I just don't like doing sales right and I don't like that sort of having to sell some things and I like an idea, and I am in can be enthusiastic about it. And I kind of want you to come along but I don't want to kind of make you come along. It's hard for me. Sometimes I think as a leader to know when to apply that pressure, I kind of just want. They just be who you are. So it's hard for me to have wouldn't know when to apply pressure both on my team and with partners and clients.
Speaker 2
07:15
But I guarantee there's a lot of people listening this conversation right now? The totally relate to that. You know, you describe yourself as easygoing and my initial reaction. When I hear that his there's a that's there're two sides to that. There's a real value in being a good person and a person that people like in a person that doesn't it Too amped up and throw things and yell at people, is there a deficit or a downside to that easygoing that gets in the way of you doing your job more effectively, people use the term laid-back, that term, always scares the living bejesus out of me. I am .
Speaker 1
07:49
Just laid back. I don't think anybody. That knows me would think I am really late. Okay. I am very much.
Speaker 2
07:53
There's an intensity to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am guessed I am .
Speaker 1
07:57
Very open to pivoting, right? So that's the easygoing part is like, if something's not working right? Or if you said had to take the day off or I did, This to. That's like, I am like, a great. Oh, could I expect the results to be the same, right? Because I mean, in the sense that I expect, we are all adults working on something. And I expect you two to figure out how we're going to maneuver around whatever that change is right? So you're adaptable at very attentive. Very rude, that phone flexible. And I think the issue comes when I work with people that I think I have given them enough information to give what they need to do. And then for whatever reason, they're not able to execute to my Asians were naked be a partner, doesn't have to be a team member and I find that. That's where I don't know necessarily am I being a nuisance and telling them, you know, 50 different times, the ways that I kind of want to see it done? Or am I being too perfectionist or what is the case? And I think for everybody it's different, right? That relationship is different. You have to learn where the communication deficit is, so you can be better at expressing your expectations.
Speaker 2
09:03
I think of all the questions. Russians, you know, all these years of work, I have been doing around leadership development. I think one of the perhaps, even the most common question is, how do I deal with a situation in? Which people aren't meeting my expectations? It's like I hear this question all the time and there's so many different ways to approach it. I mean, certainly we talk a lot in our work around shared Vision, right? So we're we really on the same page, right? So did somebody deliver something that was good but because you hadn't been clear enough up front and kind of contractual sense about what it was, you were looking for maybe the problem occurred there, often it comes down to a negative perception that the leader has that the other person doesn't care as much as I do that. They don't have the same commitment to Quality that I do and that work, that's where it gets really tough because I hear, I hear Business Leaders all the time, telling me cash. If just is my people just Cared as much as I do. Do you ever feel that way?
Speaker 1
10:07
Oh for sure. And in fact the first instance he said I am excited when that happens because it was like oh we just here's the correction point and I know that we're on the same page otherwise, so I am really excited to work with that person again. I think you're right. And in this other instance where I feel like I wish they could just care as much or see as much or be as effective as I am or as efficient. I am a big person on efficiency and I think that's where I struggle. Is like I realize. Okay, take a step back. Not everybody's the same, you know, way do things the same way as you. In fact, sometimes they're very much more effective doing them the way they do them. Then you are. But you know that part of me that is very that sort of easygoing. Non-confrontational doesn't want to have that conversation, right, right? So it's so it becomes difficult to say when to have that conversation and the same thing is true with many times the people that have the most difficulty communicating with are also very non-confrontational is why they're not asking the questions. And so when you get to people that are non-confrontational together to solve a problem that actually kind of requires friction to make it work better. I think that's where I struggle just to kind of find that line to where I apply the right amount of pressure.
Speaker 2
11:22
One of the things that I value when I walk into an organization to kind of determine that the health of the culture and that organization is how freely feedback Flows between people how in a sense how routine it is for people to say that didn't meet my expectations or I need to see something better next time. And for the other person to be able to say, well that's because your instructions weren't clear? Or next time you give me a task, please give me more guidance. So I can deliver, I mean where we find difficulties and in developing, that sort of culture. Is when people see feedback is a very kind of Formal process, and they kind of try to capture it in a human resource function rather than just, hey, that's not, that's not what I was looking for. You know, here's, here's if you'd really delivered a product to me, or an outcome, in this project that I, that would have wild me, it would have looked more like this or more like that. So what happens when somebody doesn't meet your expectation? Do you like okay, I don't want to make them feel bad. What about themselves? So I am going to try to find some really Artful way to give them that feedback. Or do you just speak your piece and speak your mind about what you saw in the gap between what you saw and what you wanted to see?
Speaker 1
12:47
Yeah. I probably don't speak my mind as much as I probably should for sure. I think if it's a pure like someone you know that's also a leader. I probably speak my mind more actually just interesting.
Speaker 2
13:02
But there's no, there's no power.
Speaker 1
13:04
Jill. Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of like, you know, hey, this is how I do it and I don't really feel. Yeah, I mean, and I am expectations of them are hired to begin with there also a leader right? And I think as a peer group because there's no direct correspondence of what they're doing is so do what I am doing. It works really it's just a conversation, right? It's really easy to.
Speaker 2
13:24
Have at home. Yeah. And one person's not responsible for evaluating the other person.
Speaker 1
13:32
He's not getting fired or ladies pay could pay. A razor cut or bonus is not going to be dependent on in an organization that I think. I think I do struggle with, with how to give proper feedback and I think it's much harder now with a lot more remote people, right?
Speaker 2
13:51
Yeah. Yeah, the US Army, which actually does some really Progressive things from a leadership perspective, believe it or not many. Many years ago, they started this after action review process. And I have always been a big fan of that because what an after-action review is when you just say, okay we finished the project. Now we're going to sit down and talk about the project, and we're going to talk about every aspect of it went really well. What didn't go? Well, what information or tools or assets that I had not have available to me? That would have made the project go better if I had and I find that very few companies do that. They're so busy moving on to the next project. That's very true that they don't really do a debrief to say and what I am wondering is that, that would be A really positive way for you to raise standards in the organization would be to participate and facilitate. Here's the project. I thought this was a really good project. What do you guys what worked for you? What do you think we could? Do better next time to invite them, to raise their standards with you in this conversation? If you have done something like this, just say so, but I am .
Speaker 1
15:07
One. Yeah, I have done that number of times. I will tell you in my experience in this sort of Consulting agency world. I am actually really big proponent of that night love participating in them because I just, I just like talking about stuff in general. Sure. And I like learning right now, like, oh, that's do better. I have found that very rarely in an organization, whether it be a big one with thousands of people in it or small one like the one I have. Now at that people anybody from team members to peers and by really wants to be part of it and it's a dragging process and I might do it on my project. It's really hard to get other project managers or Which managers or what have you to do that? Or even my own project, they don't.
Speaker 2
15:45
Want to sit down and do that debrief, they.
Speaker 1
15:48
Don't there's very little enthusiasm about it and I have been having had Engineers say, why are we doing this? And they kind of get it right? But then they just, they want to be working on the next thing. I think a lot of times when they want to, you know, they don't want to have those.
Speaker 2
16:01
Conversations want to rehash. Yeah, I don't, I haven't.
Speaker 1
16:04
Gotten into like, the real. Like why is it that everybody doesn't want to do this? It's been a point of frustration for me to where the point of I just had to let it go.
Speaker 2
16:11
Yeah, yeah, I am sorry to hear that because I am suspicious of their just being a cultural problem in the organization. If it can't have, if it doesn't see value in that sort of conversation.
Speaker 1
16:25
And again, maybe part of that just the mentality of, you know, at that end of the project as this billable work you know I am going to build a project maybe there's some of that I can't bill for this time, so we ought to maybe I don't know. So is it the stated intent of the senior leadership team?
Speaker 2
16:41
To do these post-project debriefs or and it's just something you don't execute on or is it just there's a lack of belief in the value of, I mean, that, that one issue hard maybe harder than I should because I am kind of using it as an example. Right there, there's often an intent in leadership to do a certain thing but there's not the muscle behind maintaining consistency around it, right? So if the company says, you know, we're going to do these things, then who's got their name on that. That who's going to make sure that happens and who's held accountable? If it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1
17:16
Right? I have not heard, you know, a real desire to say, hey I really want to know tradition is called like post-mortems would have you right? But after action discussions, how do we, how do we do this as an organization? Let us take this on and on, and I have not really heard that as a driving factor of a priority right now, and they know we got other priorities and yet the balance.
Speaker 2
17:35
About. Yeah, yeah, it's and it's back to the, it's back to the boot and sandal metaphor. I used earlier, right? When you're measuring utilization rates and there's a strong drive to that the natural outcome of that is people going to want to put their boots on more than their sandals. Because that's when they're singing is adding value, right? That's, that's the measure that they're held to is, and absolutely, and there's not it, because of that. And I have worked for professional service, organizations and I kind of am one in my current work. There, you can utilize yourself to death and end up with a company that's ragged and distracted and discourage because you're not stopping and taking a breath once in a while and saying, how do we do what we do? I mean it sounds like you do some of that but it also doesn't sound like there's a lot of discipline around.
Speaker 1
18:31
It. Now it's very much more freeform. I think in our organizations are very flat organization like I said and that I think kind of helps that to propagate that sort of condition, right? Um, and I think, I think there're positives and negatives of that. And there's so many healthier things that we do as an organization than in other organizations have worked at. For example, there's very little fear driven culture, right? I worked at some organizations that had, you know, big Tech clients. And I would tell you the amount of fear that's driven from leadership is so toxic, right? And so here's that's almost like the exact opposite, right?
Speaker 2
19:07
That's the downside of consequences and accountability is when it's punitive. And Unpleasant.
Speaker 1
19:11
Right, right. So I would say we have a very, very, very healthy environment in that regard. I think what we're looking at now is great. Now we're looking to become even, you know, how can we be better? Whereas an organization, and they were asking those types of questions and I don't think we're at the point where we have answers for everything and that's true of any organization.
Speaker 2
19:30
I think, you know, we talked about some of the personality issue, you talked about any being an easygoing guy and maybe you need to challenge people more and maybe you need to be more outspoken. I am coming away from this conversation. Wondering if it's more structural, if it's more, what are the expectations? And how do we have an open and honest conversation as an organization, right? Right about whether those whether we really did the best work that we could do. Of course the answer is always going to be. No. But how do we get better next time? Yeah. I mean it sounds like again some of that happens but I don't know that it happens with the level of discipline and structure that it could.
Speaker 1
20:15
Yeah and I think it thinks for me hearing what you're saying there and kind of putting it back into context, a little bit within where I have seen it struggle and in my organization or just on my teams in the past is specifically around things that are getting, not a whole project again. And not looking at the whole project when it's done. Done. It's really getting more that agile approach. Yeah, really evaluating it as a key.
Speaker 2
20:41
Milestone. Yes. Every week or two weeks, or we do scrum, and we sit down and talk about where we are. What we have delivered in the last two weeks. And what we need to deliver in the following two weeks. And I think that's another way to stay on top of the project without being ownerís and.
Speaker 1
20:56
Micromanaging. Yeah, and I think the challenge for me personally, there is just a small logistically is, you can have that conversation in a group and it's very Productive maybe for the project as a whole. Because I would say, you know, I don't have a problem with the quality of a project, when it's all done. I think, for me it's sometimes a lot this process along the way. Got it, okay? Yeah. And I think, for me, giving that feedback, so you have a group conversation, how do you then just without having a structure in place to do it? Just continually have that one on one conversation like here. You know, Joe. Here's what I am thinking about. You know, your quality work on this without feeling, like you're being a parent all the time. I think for me, that's the psychological thing is I feel like I am I am sitting my kid down and have a conversation about like, the room being messy or something, right? I think it didn't but the we're all professionals, even if they report to me, it's that. It's that. How do you do that? And, and effectively? And then, of course, you have to do that. Everybody responds to that conversation.
Speaker 2
21:57
Different. Yeah, one of the great myths of business. And I hear this all the time is, as a business leader. My job is to hire, Eight people and then leave them alone. Have you ever heard that one? I have heard that one. Yes, and that's a lot of (BS). That's not how you run a good business, you hire great people. And then you put them into a system that, that encourages and in a sense requires their best effort, and they're in their best work and you don't just simply leave them alone, you're not, you're not passive. There's nothing passive about running, a really good company. It's a very active process. Yes, and so it's tough because again, we don't want to be looking over somebody's shoulder and pointing our fingers and saying guy, that's not how I would have done it. You know, that's, that's not what we want to do, but we want some way for them to communicate as part of a team about what they're working on, everybody who's working in a business, should have to give some account of their work to their peers and The other people they work with. And I don't mean like, give me a letter grade. It's just this is what I am working on. This is what I am finding is working really well, this is where I am struggling. This is where I need more help. This is where I don't think I have the right, it system to do the work that you're asking me to do, or we need to upgrade. I mean, it's just getting people to think about their job more critically.
Speaker 1
23:26
Yeah. And I think it's and it's above the level at an individual task. So you could say, like, I am really struggling, I can't get this thing to work with this thing, right? It's just in deck but like what? I To know is like, when I get into that, I think tactically. Okay. There's maybe six people on a project and if I have those conversations with all six of them, every two weeks, if to a milestone that's how many hours worth of work. Now I have, you know, so I think part of that is the Tactical. Just you can only spend so much time and so many things and that's an excuse as well, right? But it's.
Speaker 2
23:58
A well yeah, right. I mean and again it depends on the company's culture around the sandal work as opposed to the boot work, right again. If I remember, I saw one of my colleagues sitting in his office one day, reading back in the day, trade magazine writing, they were in the international trade business, and they were reading some sort of trade magazine. And as soon as I walked into his office, he kind of like tucked it in his desk drawer. Like he was ashamed that he was reading, and I was like what are you reading about? Well it's not something one of her competitors doing with one of her clients in Southeast Asia. Or whatever. And I am like, why did you feel ashamed to be reading that trade magazine? Wait, why you obviously, have some concern that I don't see that as real work. And, you know, when people would go through these, these team-building sessions and these things where we're trying to figure often, they just have a hard time seeing that as useful, valuable time with a dollar value attached to it. So, you know, I think that might be part of the journey in Company. I also have I have the privilege of having worked with manufacturing companies distribution companies, trucking companies, and also tech companies and white collar companies. And I will say that the Professional Services firms and the software companies and stuff actually have a lot to learn from the manufacturing companies about how to map a process through a system to get the best result, you go to into Toyota factory. Curry every imp single employee in that company from the person who sweeps, the floors to the CEO is absolutely aware of what's going on that floor and how value is created and how problems and friction occurs in the organization that gets in the way of doing the work. And Toyota is a great company because literally every employee is held, not only encouraged to participate in that conversation but Accountable. If you're if you sweep the floors and you're not engaged in that conversation, they will find somebody else to sweep the floors. That's the standard that they have in their organization. And I think you know, in an organization like yours, it might be more of just how do we create this dialog, where everybody is responsible for quality? Not just a couple of people, right? So it makes that's just an encouraging maybe to think a little bit more about making that A team sport.
Speaker 1
26:37
That's a good idea. I think, I think there're some things I can take away from that and test out dry out.
Speaker 2
26:42
Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's your big win in 2023? So, the biggest win we have is a.
Speaker 1
26:50
Project we're working on. That's really, really important for Global sustainability of fisheries, and it's working with a lot of different stakeholders. So, obviously, there's us right then, but there's other ngos, there're other countries, there's supply, chain Partners. There're Fishers, of course. And so, there's a lot of thought that's going on in that space. And we're starting a program that has a really big impact and so on, hopefully getting some control in that space and shutting a light on a lot of that. And More sustainable Fisheries going.
Speaker 2
27:20
So how's it going to be challenging for you and your leadership?
Speaker 1
27:25
Yeah, it's interesting because there's a lot more, not more on the table, write it because there's a lot that has to happen that the work that we're doing can help enable. I feel confident that we're going to do that but I know it's going to be a tough journey and it's going to be pivots. There's going to be so any tips I can get to make sure that my team is absolute best in our partners and it for a lot of that is, it is working with partners and that is the very Apart, you know, so it's.
Speaker 2
27:50
You may have to be more assertive than you have been in the past. That's definitely a Minecarts when the projects I am running towards a brick wall. You know, you might be the need, the one that stands up on the table and screams and shouts to everybody that needs to hear it. The yeah, I didn't bad way.
Speaker 1
28:07
So that's something I have been learning and I think I am starting to get the hang of it because, you know, work-in-progress. Yeah.
Speaker 2
28:12
Good, good. Anything that we didn't talk about today that you wanted.
Speaker 1
28:16
To know, I just really I think, in general, I think having open conversations and not being afraid to talk about organizational, challenges and Leadership. Challenges is really important and it's one reason I wanted to be on the show. Or when I heard, I was like, hey.
Speaker 2
28:29
Yeah, good, thank you very much. We one of the joys of doing this program is this podcast is the openness of the people that come and be guests with us and, and hopefully, as people listen to the podcast, they're taking that as a model for the types of conversations that they To have with their colleagues and their mentors and their employees, you know. So you know your transparency and your openness has is inspiration. I think to a lot of people listening so thanks very much. We really enjoyed having you on the.
Speaker 1
29:03
Show. Thank you for having me. It's been an honor.
Speaker 2
29:13
As I reflect on the conversation with JT, I recognize that he's in the difficult position that a lot of you find yourselves in which is being a project manager or a leader of some sort in the organization who doesn't have direct reports or doesn't have a lot of direct reports. I was reminded of what I consider to be the most consistent weakness that I see in the organization's. I have worked with Over the past 20 plus years and that's project management. And the reason I think project management is difficult is one of the reasons it's difficult at least is that you're leading without portfolio. You're leading without a title or an authority over the people that you're asking to do the work. And so you have to use all kinds of kind of persuasive techniques to get people on board with your project because they don't report directly to you. And I really believe that in the 21st century here. We're dealing with a lot of flat and flattened organizations, and organizations in which people are being asked to lead in these same sort of situations, and you have to be strong. You have to be tough, you have to be assertive, you have to hold people accountable and you can't let the organization chart and what the organization chart tells you about reporting relationships to limit your leadership. In regard to holding people accountable to the components of those projects that they're responsible for. And if you're great Persuader and you have a great vision for your project and you can get people all excited that's great but almost every project is going to require you to be a little bit of a pest in to follow up consistently and to be organized and structured in the way that you do that. So if you work in a situation where You're asking people to do work, and they are not direct reports of yours. You have a unique responsibility to lead, but you can't be soft because the project that you're leading is a product that you're being asked to produce and you can't produce it without the cooperation and commitment and.
Speaker 1
31:32
Accountability of the other people that are working with you.
Speaker 2
31:36
So, as you're listening to this conversation and to the other conversations that we have on this podcast, I hope you're imagining. How you might have participated, the questions you might have asked, would you have accepted everything that the guest said on face value, or would you have challenged it more? Where some things maybe we skimmed over you would might have wanted to dig a little bit deeper. Thank you for listening to pass. Real conversations about leadership. If you enjoy this episode, really appreciate it. If you let us know, you can rate and review the show on Spotify, and on Apple podcasts, special thanks to all my guests for the level of vulnerability. They took in sharing their stories, if you'd like to be a guest on path forward. Please reach out via the contact form on my website path forward leadership.com. That's also where you can learn more about our show, my upcoming My book, and my leadership services, this episode is produced by large media. My book and my leadership services, this episode is produced by large media. You can find them at l.a. You can find them at l.a. RJ. RJ. Media.com, as always, thank you for listening. Media.com, as always, thank you for listening. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward.
