Getting Stuck and Getting Unstuck
Episode Details
Transcript
Chris is a person who has achieved significant success after hitting some roadblocks in mid-career. We explore the costs and implications of getting “stuck” and some of the ways we work through that. Chris provides a helpful model for all of us, but reminds us that the journey is never finished.
Speaker 1
00:00
I always had this image of success being like, once you got to a certain place you could relax, get it made. Yeah you get you'd be good. And what I have found is that once you think you can relax, you better wake up. That's the clue for me to go. You got to work harder.
Speaker 2
00:20
I am Jim Hustler. And this is path forward, real conversations about leadership in every episode. We're having real conversations with real people about real. Issues about the Journey, about the challenges about the joys. One thing leaders believe, is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the challenges, no matter how confusing or difficult things are, there's always a path forward leadership is a very creative process if you're doing it. Well, for the past 21 years, we have been teaching leadership primarily through the process of great conversations. This week we're going to do something a little different. We're talking to someone. I know very well and have known for a long time. I asked him to come on and share his story about hitting a brick wall and how he found a different path because it's so relatable and it will happen to most of us at some point in our careers. Today we're going to focus on the value of how we tell our success stories and as part of that asking, what is a success story? What does it really look like? And what does it feel like from the inside? It's a different experience for each one of us. So I am going to take off my coaching hat for a minute and just share this story with this good friend of mine, Chris Grievous. Chris, welcome to path forward.
Speaker 1
01:48
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2
01:50
You're in a really good place professionally now and I definitely talk about that. But let us first go back to a point earlier in your career right around the time that we met. We both went to this very kind of cockamamie advertising thing for some sort of Professional Services and I remember we walked out of the building, this was in downtown Seattle. You are walking ahead of me and I kind of caught up with And we kind of had a, what did you think of that kind of conversation and what I remember about that is kind of your body language and you were kind of turned away from me a little bit and you just I could see you were a person of interest in substance. I knew that right away but you seem kind of defeated At that moment and I just found myself being kind of curious about where you were And I will just say it feeling a little sad after I met you the first time. Does that resonate it all with you?
Speaker 1
02:53
I remember having a really bad cold that day.
Speaker 2
02:57
So here I am reading all kinds of information.
Speaker 1
03:00
And I do remember, being really disappointed with event, we went to. But what I remember most about that day was when we were walking out, we were talking about our businesses and how you get clients and you said something that's really stuck with me that day. You said I don't take clients where I have to explain what it is. I They either get it or they don't, I am not going to waste my time trying to sell the value of leadership development or growth, they either already value it. And I have something that they are looking for, or that's that I was at a stage in my career. Then when I was consulting, or trying to consult and had a really hard time trying to find clients. So that kind of helped. Yeah. And when I think about what I do now with organizational change And Consulting around that you go where the energy.
Speaker 2
03:49
Are you're in a good place? Now you're earning a good professional living, you went back and got your Edd and you're in your 50s. So this is something that kind of light that it got burned under you a little bit later in life, than maybe it does for a lot of people and you have kind of found your footing and didn't have solid footing. When I first met.
Speaker 1
04:08
You, it was a tough time, it was a tough time on a lot of levels. So back in 2012, I got my Book published. It's called the Innovative team. Good book, Thank you and available on Amazon. And from that I got my stories published in Forbes and training magazine in Fast Company of few other places. But did interview for, you know, basically like a press junket kind of thing? Got a lot of attention for it think that this was going to be. Yeah, this is writing a book would be, like, a doors would open people who want to hire me to come in and talk about, Reactivity and team building around creative Styles, which is what the book was about and didn't happen. All of that, good stuff for my resume, the writing and the discussions that worked was great but it didn't lead to steady income and so after about a year or, so I needed to make money for the family. So I get ended up getting a couple jobs that were internal doing leadership development organizational assessments and planning. Other things like that. And those went on for a few years. Nothing that really blossomed yet. So then, hanging up my shingle. Look for a second time. That's about when I think we met. Yeah. And the struggle was really about finding clients and about, you know, making that dream come true of having the book lead to further success do, and it didn't happen. Just didn't happen. So that was really where the struggle was.
Speaker 2
05:46
What was your worst moment? I mean, what was the hardest part of all?
Speaker 1
05:49
That for you? The worst moment was probably with my kids knowing that they're seeing their dad struggle. Hmm. That was difficult. Wow. Because if they were early teens and kind of becoming aware of things, just at that moment and I think that was probably the hardest part of it.
Speaker 2
06:15
You know, I went through a major change in my life about 22 years ago when I started this business, And it's only after I started to have some level of success with it that I realized how important the support of my children had been, and they were roughly kind of 1816. And I realized how important their reaction was to what I was doing and how much I wanted to show up, well, for them. And I also remember from my own experience, as a child, one of the things I always valued about my dad is my dad came home from work happy every day. And, you know, that I think of all the children whose parents come home, who aren't happy, and how that colors their opinion about work in general. And how the idea that I had was that work, could be fun because it must because my dad always comes home, happy at the end of the day. So I appreciate you sharing that, too, because I think a lot of us Worried about the impact that our professional lives are having on our family. And if we don't worry about it, we probably should hmm with the kids. It's interesting. Both of them. I mean, they saw me struggling financially as well, and they knew that was going on in the house and now they're both in college one's about to graduate with a double major in finance and economics. So and the other one is just starting his career in business. So it seems like their take away from it was.
Speaker 1
07:48
We're going to do something that's going to help us make money because we know what it's like not to.
Speaker 2
07:53
So, from there. How did you turn things around?
Speaker 1
07:56
Yeah. I mean what happened was that I got to a point where I just needed to do something and this would this was about five six years ago. I heard about a conference that there were a lot of people that I went for my Master's Degree, we're going to be there in my Master's is in, creativity and Innovation, and it was down in Oregon and I live in Seattle. So I was like, well, I should go do that. I haven't been to an academic conference in a long time. I think I will just check it out what the heck. So I drove down to Ashland Oregon and got there and it was a beautiful summer day and metre met. All these people that I hadn't spoken with, in a long time met some new people, had some really engaging conversations about creativity Innovation about research and about how you can apply this academic stuff to real life. And it was just Turn on and then on the way back home, by the time I got to Salem which was about two hours, I had decided, you know what realize that everybody had was talking to have doctoral degree? Hmm. And that I didn't and I wanted to be around smart people like that. Hmm. And it seemed like the degree was sort of your ticket in. It's your key to that door. So if we take a.
Speaker 2
09:13
Lesson from that is if we want to get out of a tough spot. Spot or a funk engaging with other people as part of the process, even in maybe we don't feel like.
Speaker 1
09:24
It absolutely go to the conference was more or less a whim. I was like, I don't know what's going to happen when I am there. I think I will just try it out, but the drive and the reflections on the drive where, I don't know, they like a, like you said, I am in my 50s. This is my early 50s. I was thinking, how do I want to spend my time? You know if I could do anything. And the fact is spending my time talking with smart. People is really fun. That is really fun. Yeah. So how much, how can I do more of?
Speaker 2
09:53
That? So you made an assessment that going back to school would be healthy and helpful for you. What happened next? I stood about it for a while. I looked at all the different program options that were available. So I did a lot of research, I also talked to some people.
Speaker 1
10:14
Professionals about where they had gotten their degrees or what they would recommend. I did not was not able to move, so I had to go for a remote degree. That kind of limited options right there. You had to pay for it, and then they have to pay for it. And these things are not cheap. I discovered, I mean, the program I went through was very expensive and it was kind of talking it over with my wife and about, well, are we ready for me to go into debt for this? Yes. And my answer to that was yeah, because I really wanted to do it and I thought that professionally it would help and would be able to pay it off, what ended up happening was at the same time, starting the degree interviewed at a company, and they hired me, and they have a tuition reimbursement program and I haven't had to pay anything for it. So you take the, the corporation pay. So you should research that if you work.
Speaker 2
11:10
Especially for a larger Corporation.
Speaker 1
11:12
There. No, absolutely. If you can get tuition.
Speaker 2
11:15
Reimbursement. I mean, even Starbucks offers that, right? So yeah, so.
Speaker 1
11:20
That made a great difference. So the fact that I was going for the degree helped me get the job, and then, you know, the job helped. You get the degree job. Help me get the degree. So.
Speaker 2
11:28
You went back to school. You got your EDD. How much of the benefit you got from that? Comes from what you actually learned in the program as opposed to what you experience as a person in the learning process. Does that question even? When make sense, I mean, is the body of knowledge that you came out of that with what's made a big difference for you or it's just like, hey, I did this. I feel motivated, I feel kind of launched forward in my career.
Speaker 1
11:58
The biggest difference, the going back to school and getting a degree made is that made me a better candidate for a job in that not because of the credential. But because they saw somebody in their 50s going back to school. Hmm. I think that made more of a difference than ever. Anything in the classes.
Speaker 2
12:15
Interested? You went through your program in a cohort? Yes, we're you the oldest person and no I was not.
Speaker 1
12:22
We had a cohort of about 30 to 40 people, and I am going to guess maybe ten of us were over 50. Okay. Most people were in the 30s and 40s. Yeah, going through this was a program that was designed for professionals realize that you were doing a full time job as well, right? So right.
Speaker 2
12:39
A lot of academic programs have made that adjustment over the years. So one little push back, I have got, and I know You have to recognize that I have the kind of the opposite academic credential that you have. I don't even have a college degree, right? So the concern I have at times is, I have seen people who are stuck in their career, and they said, I need to go get an MBA, and they get the MBA and nothing changes. So I want people to be aware of that too. It will help your resume but it doesn't always work out the way it worked out for you because sometimes people think that their career isn't going the way they want it to be. They don't have the advanced degree, and then they go get the degree, and they haven't solved. Some of the underlying problems they were having as a business person, I have had some interesting conversations with people where I said. Okay, no problem, go, get an MBA, that's great but let us talk about why you're not having the success you want and talk about. Well, that degree really changed that I.
Speaker 1
13:38
Still, have the underlying problems that I had beginning of the degree, right? That is true. Okay, the point of getting the degree, Me though, was because I liked being around smart great. It was fun. So, yeah, I have a bigger Network now. Yeah, you know, thanks to that if I were to struggle again professionally I have got a lot more people to reach out to. Yeah. What was really cool though about it, too, and when you start to think about the content of the program was that I have a class about organizational accountability, for instance, the next day, I am at work and seeing issues with accountability everywhere, and I am able to take the theories and the measures and the stuff that I was learning in class and immediately apply it because of the degree and the work that I was doing were so complimentary, I think I could become better professionally as a result.
Speaker 2
14:24
Of it. Well again, another important lesson don't learn anything as an adult that you can't put into action, right away, right? This is we focus on this in the workshop that you and I facilitated together. It's putting it into action, right away. And if you just learn it, it's in a book and you stick it on the bookshelf, it doesn't It used. So I love that. I love that. You were able to take what you learned and go back to work the next day. I think that's there's a good lesson in that.
Speaker 1
14:51
Yeah. Having had.
Speaker 2
14:52
This experience and knowing what, you know. Now how do we support somebody that we care about whose stuck?
Speaker 1
14:59
Professionally? Do you have a friend who he didn't go back to school? But he was struggling for a while with some undiagnosed depression, and some, some other challenges and getting himself out the door and into a job. And just Taking those steps forward, made a difference for him, and he ended up finding a career helping others in a, in a home for people with disabilities, he wasn't trained to do that. I mean, his degree is in criminology. So this was a completely new thing, but he found that helping others was really his calling. So, if somebody stuck, that's the advice, I would give them is to do something, you know, open a book. Go out the.
Speaker 2
15:44
Door. Yeah, there's so much power in that simple message. My wife would describe me as a pretty emotional guy. And I have Had My Moments of depression and things like that, and the worst thing that can happen is to stop.
Speaker 1
15:57
Moving. That's it. It's.
Speaker 2
16:00
Just, just stop moving, right? And you didn't do that. You almost did.
Speaker 1
16:05
I did a couple times and got out of it. I think that most people are like that to being depressed or feeling like you're not going. Anywhere is pretty common and I think it's might even More common than we want to admit for middle-aged men. Yeah. And I think that's.
Speaker 2
16:18
True in a global scale. I think it's also true in an almost the kind of daily scale, right? It's like if you're not feeling so great when you get up in the morning get to work. I mean that sounds like a very kind of, you know, Protestant work ethic e thing for me to say, but I think there's some real psychology behind it.
Speaker 1
16:37
There's something to be said, also, for my kind of mixing things up a little bit more creativity. Standpoint, you know we are always looking for new ways to use things or two. Do things differently the other day. I didn't really want to take my dog for a walk and walked on the other side of the street that I normally do. Okay, and after about two blocks, I am like, noticing the view is very different and that this is kind of cool. I ended up walking for, you know, 20 more minutes than I thought I was going to because I just decided. Hey I am gonna just walk in a different place and it just enough to stir those brain cells around. I know.
Speaker 2
17:07
You know of course I have run into an any number of people over the years that are stuck.
Speaker 1
17:13
And.
Speaker 2
17:15
Getting stuck tends to lead to getting stuck her and stuck her. Is that a word Stucker? I don't know if it is but it augurs in on itself. You stop moving forward. And then you just inertia, what are the?
Speaker 1
17:28
Lessons here? Trying something new trying doing the thing you have to do in a different way, is really helpful looking at the problem or The Situation from a different lens. Like if I continue to look at it from a whole, how am I going to get more Consulting clients, that would be the same path that I was. Going on for years, and it wasn't working out. Well, instead, I approached it from, how do I want to spend my time? I want to spend my time talking with cool people. How can I be around those? Cool people more often? Well, my answer to that was gone back to school. My friend was stuck in his own malaise and trying to find work. He ended up going into something that he didn't know anything really about but it was that action of Step moving forward, that made a difference and then it was just Finding some to some joy in the new work.
Speaker 2
18:16
Some people get stuck in an industry to like there's a lot of people in Aerospace in the Seattle area, right who have been in the Aerospace industry forever, and they can't imagine themselves outside of the Aerospace industry. And I found myself lately, encouraging any number of them to consider something completely different. It's not the only industry around and I think people get stuck on that, then they think that's all they can do. And they don't realize that a lot of your skills in life were transferable. I mean, I had to learn that because I didn't develop any specific skills at all you have. No transferable is guide. A really I studied classical music in college for God's sake. How do you make a living out of that? And I had to work because I guess I got married very young. I was 20. My wife was 19. Thank God, we're still married 46 years later, but I had to work. I didn't want to. I wanted to keep going to college, I found out very quickly. You talk about Creativity is, you know you kind of feel the study for you. If you want to be creative, you will find a way to be creative in any situation that you find yourself. In the example, I would use as I got a job working graveyard shift in a warehouse in Compton, California, that was when I first got married. That's what I was doing for a living and I decided to get creative about it. It's not what I wanted to be doing, but I decided to just take it and run with it and within a few months, I was running the place and, but I Couldn't get myself into a hangdog like, oh God, I am working graveyard shift at a warehouse. I had to say, okay, well, how's my best version of myself going to show up here? And that was a very transformative event early in my career because I realized I didn't have to wait for the perfect circumstance to present itself. To me that whatever circumstance I was in, I could do something interesting with it. So, in a way you were also stuck, you were stuck in this graveyard job but your choice.
Speaker 1
20:18
There was to say, well, you know, how can I play with this?
Speaker 2
20:22
Yeah, I think I could have gotten stuck. I could have felt sorry for myself and I didn't and that brings up another. Another question is, I would assume your confidence was shaken to some.
Speaker 1
20:35
Kosher, right?
Speaker 2
20:36
Sure. So, how do we get confident, right? I mean, it is a question that's come up a hundred times with me. During the 21 years, I have been doing the leadership development work in a, how do I gain confidence? It's and I think that's part of this conversation, too, because you had to gain confidence, you'd lost some of your account, right, at Ya.
Speaker 1
20:56
How did that happen? How did I lose the confidence? How did you get it back?
Speaker 2
21:00
You could have gotten 50 people to line up, one by one, and tell you how great you were, and that probably wouldn't help at.
Speaker 1
21:07
All. No, I wouldn't have helped at all. So, the way I lost confidence was not doing the work that I wanted to do. So I didn't have the clients. I didn't have the opportunity to Shine, I knew I was good at teaching, I thought I was good at facilitating groups. I was good at assessing data and presenting it back. I had no opportunity to actually do that because there was.
Speaker 2
21:30
Just no work for over a.
Speaker 1
21:32
Year. I got it back because I got the opportunity to run a leadership program.
Speaker 2
21:40
For my.
Speaker 1
21:41
Company and you did a great job. Well but you were in. Now this is the part where it's easier to interview somebody. You don't know, yeah, right. So the story I will tell is that we had just started to work together. Would give him that me, this opportunity to come into the cohort that you were taking through this leadership program and you said, hey, why don't you lead this next one? And I remember at the time I was very nervous. I hadn't done that in a couple years at that point and I had to kind of shake the dust off and go into the room and what I Was I prepared, I made sure that I knew the content well that I walked in aware of my energy that I was bringing into the room and tried to be as well, full of energy as I could be, really listen to people in the process because that's I mean that's really the key for running any sort of leadership development is we got to meet people where they are, so you better be listening to find out, where are they? So anyway I the that opportunity to go in and shake the cobwebs off and to really be Focused on it. I walked out that afternoon. Feeling really good feeling like, where, I remembered where I came from and that I knew I could do it, and I didn't have any trouble with the confidence. After that point, it just started to build on itself. Well, anything is another.
Speaker 2
23:06
Thing that I think is germane to your situation is that you were, you were trying to be self-employed at that moment. Now you have a nice stable corporate job, right? And huge relief. Yeah, and I mean, I have had this conversation with people. This is a lot of people listening to this podcast right now. Are thinking gee, I would sure like to have my own business. I usually recommend against it, by the way, even though I have had a successful business for 21 years, I usually tell people not to do it. I don't know, I don't know if I am trying to eliminate competition or what I am doing, but I just there's so many ways, it can go dreadfully.
Speaker 1
23:42
Wrong, I have found myself doing the same thing but that because I tried it and it went dreadfully wrong. Yeah, I mean if you are the type of person who wants to live your work, which I have seen you do actually. Yeah. From time, you know where you really are and you're up in the morning, you're right in the chapter, you're doing the blog post, you're calling the client and then pretty soon. It's 5:00 6:00 at night and you're still.
Speaker 2
24:05
Going. Yeah. Well then you're thinking about it 3:00 and then it.
Speaker 1
24:09
Right? And you're thinking about that client conversation and what went well and what didn't. And then that one thing that.
Speaker 2
24:14
Didn't is what's keeping you up on the other side of that, I think some people get unstuck. Tuck by fleeing Corporate America and starting their own business. I think it could work the opposite way as well. The biggest problem is with starting your own business is you put too much emphasis on the quality of your product or service and you don't realize that has almost nothing to do with your success. I mean I am not almost nothing but I mean, there's a whole lot of people out there that are really, really good at what they do, that can make a living doing it on their.
Speaker 1
24:45
Own. So when you say that you're really become really, really focused on the quality of the product. Here's how I relate that to that when I was studying creativity, you learn about creative problem-solving as a process and the stages of it tools involved and Divergent convergent thinking, it's really exciting stuff. So I just excited to use this tool right? Have the best process and the best tool to help you solve problem, isn't that the greatest thing? I tell that to a client, they don't care, they don't care one bit about, Out my process, my, my research, and, you know, Divergent and convergent thinking, they don't care about it one bit. They have their work to do, and they're going to do it and who needs your great product.
Speaker 2
25:29
For anybody? That's thinking about starting their own business. I would start by reading a book called The e-myth. The entrepreneur myth is with the E stands for, and then he rewrote the book twenty years after the first edition called the e-myth Revisited. He uses the story of like a person that opens a shop and sells Heís, right? Because they just think their pies are so good, and they are really good pies, but nobody buys them, and they didn't realize that just putting a good product out isn't enough. There's a whole bunch of marketing and Logistics and finances and stuff that go along. And unless your product can be differentiated against the other product, that doesn't, it doesn't.
Speaker 1
26:08
Matter and Consulting. It's a lot about relationship building. Yeah. And walking in telling people about my great process, Isn't working out at all. But if instead what I do and internally now is I will listen for the need and then say, this is what I am hearing. I am hearing. You're struggling with X Y or Z. Have you thought about this and ask questions using my tool without ever showing that? It's a tool?
Speaker 2
26:34
And I think, if I have had an advantage over the past 21 years and running my own business, it is that I am fairly oblivious to rejection, I guess I don't interpret when people don't want to buy what I am selling. Don't see it as a personal thing, and I think that a lot of people get hung up on that as well. So, where do you feel that you're at right now? How do you feel like you have arrived at all? Or you have reached the destination or this is still part of a longer.
Speaker 1
27:01
Journey? The thing that makes me that made me a little nervous about this conversation when you presented it to me, was that underlying it you were in a bad place. Now you're in a better place. Okay, I can accept that but I don't feel like the struggle if you will is over. Honestly the rug can be pulled out from under yet just like that. And it's happened to me before, so I am not thinking that I am not in the Winner's Circle you know I am not done with the race.
Speaker 2
27:32
Well, there's a lot there. I think when you're in a tough spot there's a lot of fear in that. And then even when you get to a better place, some of that fear is kind of hanging around there, isn't it? You still feel that way sometimes? Absolutely might go horribly wrong and.
Speaker 1
27:51
I am constantly aware that in any moment. Things can go horribly wrong. What that does are it makes me Hyper aware of doing the work well and to not take it for granted. Rented. At all when I think back at those times when right prior to struggling or right prior to may be changing jobs, what got me in trouble was that feeling of complacency thinking I was in a good place. I didn't need to worry about. You had arrived. Yeah, that I that it was. Everything is cool. No worries. Yeah now that's not the way. It took a long time for me to learn that it's not the way life works. You gotta show up and got to be present, and he got a really try.
Speaker 2
28:38
Yeah I appreciate you sharing that. I tend to think of your situation is you know you like you're in the ear in the clearing. Now you have come through the Dark Forest and you have arrived at the clearing. And you tell me that there's some of this still feels like you're a little bit in the.
Speaker 1
28:51
Forest. There are days when I don't want to go to work. You know like anyone there're days when I feel like maybe the work I did that day when it wasn't particularly you know, impactful that Sign that the next day. I better make sure it's impactful that I got to put, I got a double effort.
Speaker 2
29:07
Well, that's very true. When you run your own business too.
Speaker 1
29:09
Well, that's.
Speaker 2
29:10
Yeah, I can't Mill in a client engagement. I can't, I can't do less than my best work for a client really ever. Because there's always that fear of not only losing that client, but, but losing a reputation, right? Not getting the next climb. Yeah, you know, I think there is a certain amount of paranoia, that drives any level. Of success. I don't know if that is you choose a different word than that but I think I don't know. Yet the balance is right for being in gratitude for what you have but also having some level of fear or uncertainty about it continue we have to hold both of.
Speaker 1
29:49
Then. Yeah and for me it was I always had this image of success being like once you got to a certain place you could relax and it made. Yeah you got you'd be good. And what I have found is that once you think you can Lack you better wake up. That's the clue for me to go, you got to work.
Speaker 2
30:06
Harder, what's in your future? Where do you have from here and what are you going to teach your kids about all?
Speaker 1
30:12
This that you went through to what I am hoping is that kids have seen me come out of the hole if you will. And they have seen me dedicate myself to this doctoral program. They have seen the graduation. I hopefully, they can see that there's an opportunity for them if they're feeling down or if they're feeling stuck, To get out of it as far as next to me for career. I don't know. I kind of like to be a professor. I like the teaching I like being a student. So why not be on the other end of the podium?
Speaker 2
30:45
Yeah, well, I wish that for you. I hope that happens, Dr. Chris Grievous. Thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. You have been very open and generous with sharing your.
Speaker 1
30:53
Story. Thanks for having me. Jim love talking to you, thanks likewise?
Speaker 2
30:58
I would like to be one of those Rah guys, that says, You know, your journey is never over. It's never too late to start, you know, all those kind of things. But, you know, there really is some truth to it. In our society, we're kind of extending people like me who are past retirement age even or thinking about new starts and new beginnings, and letting go of the past and saying goodbye to old things. Chris's story was in really resonant with me, because it would have been easy for him to feel defeated by. By this, this big speed bump that he kind of hit it, you know, well into his career he didn't give up. He picked himself up, he went back to school, and he still saw himself as a vibrant and Youthful energy and in the world that still had something to offer that hadn't yet been realized. And so, wherever you are in your career, if you feel like you're stuck, start over again. If you need to, we all live longer these days, we have a lot of you. Ears to look forward to, and we don't want to have to look back on our lives and say I got stuck and I stayed stuck. And I am still stuck, getting stuck, there're ways to do it. Well, thank you for listening to path forward, real conversations about leadership. If you enjoy this episode, really appreciate it. If you let us know, you can rate and review the show on Spotify, and on Apple podcasts, special thanks to all my guests for the level of vulnerability. They took in sharing their stories, if you'd like to be a guest on path forward. Please reach out via the contact form on my website path forward leadership.com Cam. That's also where you can learn more about our show, my upcoming book and my leadership services. This episode is produced by large media. This episode is produced by large media. You can find them at La RJ media.com. You can find them at La RJ media.com. As always. As always. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward. I am Jim Hessler and this is path forward.
